Simple comparison: scholars vs prophets

In the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding, and in the spirit of no more contention, the table below compares two alternative approaches to the Cumorah question.

The purpose is to simplify and clarify the differences while: 

(i) assuming all parties are acting in good faith and 

(ii) seeking understanding of both sides with no contention about "who is correct." 

“All parties should strive to avoid contention on these matters.” 

Cumorah: prophets vs scholars
Prophets	M2C Scholars
New York Cumorah	M2C (Mesoamerican/two-Cumorah’s theory that puts Cumorah in Mexico)
Basic premise
Basic premise: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, their contemporaries and their successors in Church leadership told the truth about Cumorah/Ramah in New York.	Basic premise: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, their contemporaries and their successors in Church leadership did not tell the truth about Cumorah but instead were merely speculating because a few RLDS and LDS scholars have figured out that the “real” Cumorah must be in Mexico to make their maps of the Book of Mormon fit.
Specific examples
Moroni called the hill Cumorah during his first visit to Joseph Smith	Joseph Smith, Lucy Mack Smith, and Oliver Cowdery were all wrong
Joseph referred to the hill as Cumorah even before he translated the plates	Lucy Mack Smith was wrong
The messenger took the abridged plates from Harmony to Cumorah	David Whitmer was wrong
Joseph and Oliver visited the repository in Cumorah multiple times	Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, Heber C. Kimball were all wrong
Joseph’s contemporaries and successors in Church leadership, including members of the First Presidency speaking in General Conference, reaffirmed that Cumorah is in New York	They were all wrong.
Who discusses which approach (with no more contention)
Ordinary Latter-day Saints who accept the teachings of the prophets have taught and who confirm their bias by assessing the extrinsic evidence that supports and corroborates the teachings of the prophets and Cumorah/Ramah in New York. Often referred to as “Heartlanders.”	Scholars in legacy organizations such as FAIRLDS, Interpreter, FARMS, BMAF, Book of Mormon Central, etc., all of whom reject the teachings of the prophets and confirm their bias by interpreting the Book of Mormon to fit in a Mesoamerican setting. Often referred to as “M2Cers.”

The references are available here:

https://www.mobom.org/church-history-issues

Horses in ancient America

Someone posted this on FB.

"The popular narrative that horses were brought to the Americas by Europeans is now being questioned. New evidence suggests that horses were in the Americas independent of European contact. Some native nations have contended that horses have been around since time immemorial, but unfortunately oral traditions and traditional knowledge frequently aren’t regarded as legitimate until Western science validates these claims.

It now looks like archeology is catching up with what some Native nations have always known,

providing yet another example of how Indigenous knowledge and Native ways of knowing must be given equal consideration with Knowledge from a Western scientific paradigm.

While this new evidence doesn’t confirm that horses have been in the Americas since time immemorial, it does demonstrate that the adoption of the horse is independent of European colonization.

“Native accounts contradicted the timeline centered on the Pueblo Revolt, suggesting some tribes had acquired horses much earlier, but “oral tradition was discounted,” says Comanche historian Jimmy Arterberry, a co-author of the Science study. “The end result has been to discredit the antiquity of the relationship between Native people and horses,” adds University of Colorado, Boulder, archaeologist William Taylor, also a co-author.”"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1519103878311682/

10 years ago at Cumorah...

I made this video about 10 years ago (October 2015). 

https://youtu.be/RD39bOvxPL4

Most Latter-day Saints today have no idea what Oliver Cowdery taught about the Hill Cumorah. Because the hill has been reforested, Latter-day Saints will never have the view of the valley west of Cumorah that Oliver described in Letter VII, which is the same view Mormon described in Mormon 6.

But videos and photos preserve the historic viewpoint so people can still understand what Oliver described.

For more info, see https://www.mobom.org/church-history-issues

Brigham Young's prophecy about Cumorah

Shortly before he died, Brigham Young discussed Cumorah in a special conference in 1877. He said, 

"I relate this to you, and I want you to understand it. I take this liberty of referring to those things so that they will not be forgotten and lost."

[See the full excerpt from his discourse below.]

Despite his efforts, Brigham's fear was realized. His prophecy that these things would be forgotten and lost has come to pass.

In our day, Latter-day Saints never learn what Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, his mother Lucy Mack Smith, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Heber C. Kimball, Wilford Woodruff and other contemporaries of Joseph Smith said about Cumorah. 

No one who relies on the Saints book, volume 1, to learn about Church history knows anything about Cumorah. Regarding Cumorah, that book creates a false narrative present because in Joseph's day, everyone knew Cumorah was not merely the site of Moroni's stone box that contained the abridged plates, but also the site of the repository of Nephite records and the same hill called Ramah by the Jaredites.

In Joseph Smith's day, every Latter-day Saint knew about Cumorah/Ramah. 

-Oliver's account (Letter VII) was published in the 1835 Messenger and Advocate. 

-Joseph had it copied into his journal as part of his life history, where everyone can read it today in the Joseph Smith Papers.

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/90

-Joseph encouraged people to republish Oliver's account. In 1841, Benjamin Winchester republished it in the Gospel Reflector. 

-Parley P. Pratt republished it in the Millennial Star. 

-Joseph's brother Don Carlos republished it in the Times and Seasons. 

-Joseph's brother William republished it in The Prophet (a New York newspaper) in 1844.

-Joseph's nephew, Joseph F. Smith, republished it in the Improvement Era in Utah.

Oliver's explanation about Cumorah/Ramah was included in lesson manuals, books, articles, etc. It was discussed in General Conference as recently as 1975.

Today, apart from historical references such as the Joseph Smith papers, Cumorah/Ramah has been erased from the historical content such as Saints and media produced by Scripture Central.

But Latter-day Saints who are "engaged learners," who are not "lazy learners" who rely on scholars to tell them what to think, but are "learners who act" continue to learn what the prophets have taught about Cumorah.

For more info, see https://www.mobom.org/church-history-issues

_____

Discourse by President Brigham Young, delivered at a Special Conference Held at Farmington, for the Purpose of Organizing a Stake of Zion for the County of Davis, on Sunday Afternoon, June 17, 1877.

When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: “This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ.” 

I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting, enjoying the day, and by and by we separate and go away, forgetting most of what is said, but remembering some things. So is it with other circumstances in life. 

I relate this to you, and I want you to understand it. I take this liberty of referring to those things so that they will not be forgotten and lost. Carlos Smith was a young man of as much veracity as any young man we had, and he was a witness to these things. Samuel Smith saw some things, Hyrum saw a good many things, but Joseph was the leader.

(1870s1877, BY Trying to ¶7 • JD 19:38) 

2 sets of plates: AI narrative

The narrative as related by Google AI Studio:

Joseph Smith, guided by the angel Moroni, ventured to the Hill Cumorah. It was a crisp autumn evening, the air filled with the scent of decaying leaves and the promise of a sacred task. Deep within the earth, nestled in a stone box, lay the golden plates. These plates, a record of ancient inhabitants of the Americas, were entrusted to Joseph. With reverence and a sense of divine calling, he carefully removed the heavy, metallic leaves, knowing they held a powerful story waiting to be unlocked.

Back in Harmony, Pennsylvania, with his scribe Oliver Cowdery faithfully recording, Joseph began the arduous process of translation. Peering into the Urim and Thummim, he saw characters form and words illuminate his mind. Oliver, amazed and humbled, diligently transcribed the words that flowed from Joseph's lips. The room was filled with a quiet intensity, a palpable connection to a history long forgotten. The Book of Mormon began to take shape, a testament to faith, revelation, and the enduring power of God's word.

Once the translation of the abridged plates was complete, Joseph followed further instructions. An old, wise-looking man, with a long, flowing white beard and kind eyes, arrived, guided by the same heavenly messenger. With solemnity and trust, Joseph delivered the abridged plates into his care. The old man, his face etched with understanding and purpose, accepted the weighty responsibility, knowing the sacred purpose they served.

The old man, carrying the plates in his knapsack, journeyed back to the Hill Cumorah. He walked with a steady resolve, his gaze fixed on the horizon, as if guided by an unseen force. The sun dipped below the horizon, casting long shadows across the landscape as he approached the familiar hill. Here, he carefully returned the larger set of plates to their resting place, entrusting them to the earth from whence they came.

A short time later, in Fayette, New York, the same old man appeared before Joseph once more. This time, he carried a smaller set of plates, bound together but significantly smaller and lighter than the abridged plates. These plates contained the history of the people of Nephi in Nephi's own words. These plates were now entrusted to Joseph, to translate and understand the promises made to his ancestors. 

2 sets of plates: another reason

One common criticism of the Restoration is the idea that the entire text of the Book of Mormon as we have it today, plus the Book of Lehi (the lost 116 pages), plus the sealed portion, all fit on a set of gold plates that were about 6"x9"x6" thick.

This objection came up recently on the Alex O'Connor podcast with Jacob Hansen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_E4K_6O1LY

I've seen myriad speculations from all sides on this topic, including the idea that the inscriptions were tiny, that each character could represent several words, a sentence, or a concept, etc.

For example, in his Part Seven, Royal Skousen rejects the Truman Coe account of the translation by writing, "A single character corresponding to an entire thought ('the import written in plain English' and 'the meaning of the next character') also shows up in David Whitmer's later accounts, but this too seems to be impossible."

Regardless of the speculation, whether from apologists or critics, the problem would be alleviated if there were more plates involved.

Which is exactly what we think happened, as explained by the "two sets of plates" scenario.

https://www.lettervii.com/p/the-two-sets-of-plates-schematic.html

Under this scenario, Joseph obtained abridged plates from Moroni's stone box, but not the original plates of Nephi (which we usually call the small plates). He returned the abridged plates to the messenger (one of the Three Nephites) before leaving Harmony. This messenger returned those plates to the repository in Cumorah, where he picked up the plates of Nephi and took them to Fayette, which is why Joseph translated the plates of Nephi in Fayette.

IOW, we have two entirely separate sets of plates. 

Those who claim the entire Book of Mormon, including the Book of Lehi, the sealed portion, and the plates of Nephi, were all included in the 6x9x6 set of plates can immediately see how confining their theory is.

_____

you say we have some descriptions about the physical characteristics of the plates we know sort of roughly how big

1:27:34

they were we know like the size of the the the the plates and of

1:27:40

course we also know how much information was put on the Golden Plates because we

1:27:47

have our English translation of course it wasn't written in English on the plates but we know like the amount of

1:27:52

information given what we know about the size of the plates and given that there

1:27:58

are 2

1:28:14

269,000 plates which seems like a reasonable estimate I mean would you agree that they were probably between 50 and 100 Golden Plates I actually

1:28:20

wouldn't um you're bringing up uh uh the how could all of this this information it fit onto those plates yes because

1:28:27

you're going to say that they're much thinner so so they have they they actually have been people who have

1:28:33

studied this pretty in depth um and and there are absolutely ways that it could

1:28:39

have fit on it within the thickness of known Alloys that would be used for this

1:28:44

sort of thing um so to be clear like the if you look at another example of a

1:28:50

metal plates and this is something that Trent horn brings up in his debate to you he mentions the plates of Darius

1:28:55

which are written in a few different languages they're written in uh old Persian they're written in

1:29:00

Acadian um they're written in some other language that I can't pronounce elmite

1:29:05

and uh each plate contains around 200 English words like in Translation we get about 200 English words per plate right

1:29:13

mhm there are 270,000 words in the Book of Mormon so if it like obviously it's a different

1:29:20

language that we're talking about here but if that is the kind of information uh density that we tend to

1:29:28

find in these sort of symbolic languages it is difficult to imagine how somebody

1:29:33

would take 270,000 words and fit them onto Golden Plates that like you know

1:29:41

were would sort of off the off the size described it seems like you have to have like entire

1:29:47

paragraphs represented by like singular symbols yeah I I would say that I I

1:29:54

would dispute the number of I I would have to point you to people that have actually made videos on this I actually

1:30:00

have one on my channel I don't have it off the top of my head some of the research on this but when you actually

1:30:05

take the thickness of the plates and change it to the number of plates that would have been available they were described as being as thin as like

1:30:12

pliable paper so they were very thin in in according to the scriptions from the

1:30:17

witnesses and when you take into account um how small the text could be made like

1:30:24

it doesn't rule this out and then there's another aspect to this that people have talked about as a as I think a possibility if this is a revealed

1:30:31

translation there's nothing in there that can't expand certain ideas that are in the original text Blake Osler who's a

1:30:38

great scholar latterday St scholar has a has a paper about the expansion theory around the Book of Mormon that some of

1:30:45

this may have been expanded ideas that exist so

1:30:51

again yes I put this in the okay this is sort of an interesting puzzle but I don't think that it's something that

1:30:56

sort of comes away showing that it's impossible I think people over their claim it would have to be an incredible

1:31:03

document right and I don't know much about this I mean I haven't read the book of Mor um and I I'm I I knew

1:31:10

nothing about Mormonism until we met fairly recently in Los Angeles so yeah we're sort of learning on the spot here

1:31:16

but as far as I understand it like this is just the the Golden Plates are written accounts of the people who had

1:31:22

fled uh who had fled Jerusalem and they end up burying these plates somewhere

1:31:30

and so like the writing of the plates isn't itself like a miraculous occurrence this is just a people writing

1:31:36

down in their language the events of their lives and so if we did end up

1:31:42

happening to find happening that if if it did happen that this occurred on

1:31:47

these incredibly thin Golden Plates which we don't really find anywhere else we find plates but we don't find them

1:31:53

that thin we don't find that much information put onto that size of plates it would have to be this like remarkable

1:31:59

and unique set of texts at the very least right to a certain to a certain degree there again some of the stuff

1:32:06

that you're bringing up I know it's been disputed because I've I've seen apologetics on this subject I don't have

1:32:12

them here but like there are there are texts that are extremely small in the ancient world that they would that they

1:32:19

would do also the thickness of the plates you can make certain things like tumbaga that they've talked about that

1:32:25

can be made extremely thin it's just one of those things again that yeah sure I I

1:32:30

can see why this would be a a challenge but it it's one that when I stack up all the other things sure I end up in this

1:32:39

situation where it's like look yeah I have reasons to doubt but if I'm trying to account for all of it I also have to

1:32:45

try and account for all these reasons that I believe and a lot of those reasons there there is evidentiary stuff

1:32:52

there as I've kind of talked about which again people can debate and dispute

1:32:58

but um I think that there's like ultimately

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like with like with any Christian for example talking about various things there are reasons to believe

1:33:11

there are reasons to doubt and I think that we have a strong case as strong as any Christian Case and then there is

1:33:18

sort of the effect that this has on sort of a spiritual level right yeah um so I'm I'm I'm not going to

1:33:24

yeah I I don't want to I don't want to put you on the spot and if you send me after this a link to the the video that

1:33:29

you have or other videos discussing this I'll put it in the description because I think this will this will be important to people because it's it's one of the

1:33:36

it's an interesting sort of physical uh dispute right like we we can

1:33:42

there's things that we can learn we can discover how ancient Plains were inscribed we can discover how thin you

1:33:47

can realistically cut gold and it still be legible you you we can discover

1:33:53

ancient language is cond and just to be clear like the plates had an appearance

1:33:58

of gold there's the idea that they are actually like 24 carat solid go we that

1:34:03

is not what we believe about that just interesting yeah that's that's that's instructive too