Tuesday, April 17, 2018

Why is there a visitors center at the Hill Cumorah in New York?

Hill Cumorah Visitors Center, April 2018
Because the exhibits in the Hill Cumorah Visitors Center teach that Cumorah is in Mexico (M2C, or the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory), it's a bit of a puzzle why the Church even has a Visitors Center at the Hill Cumorah in New York.

Site missionaries are allowed to tell visitors only that this is the location where Joseph Smith got the plates from Moroni. They cannot mention Letter VII or the teachings of the prophets about Cumorah and the Book of Mormon.

They cannot even read Mormon 6:6 with visitors, let alone Ether 13.

Any discussion of the hill Cumorah as the site of Mormon's depository of Nephite records or the location of the final battles of the Jaredites and Nephites is forbidden.

Maybe someday they'll transfer the building to the "real Cumorah" in Mexico. Just as soon as Book of Mormon Central America, or Fairly Mormon, find that location.
_____

But at least there is a consensus that Joseph Smith got the plates from the "hill in New York" where the Visitors Center is located. I was curious how we even know that this hill is the one from which Joseph obtained the plates.

It turns out, it's all because of Letter VII.
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Joseph Smith-History says this about the hill:

51 Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. 

Hills in the village of Manchester, Ontario County
There are lots of hills in the area, and it's not easy to tell which is the highest. Joseph referred to a "neighborhood," but how extensive was this neighborhood?

In Joseph Smith's day, one distinguishing feature of the hill Cumorah was the embankments around it. These have been leveled and farmed now for nearly two centuries, but after Heber C. Kimball joined the Church in April 1832, he visited the site.

He wrote, "The hill Cumorah is a high hill for that country, and had the appearance of a fortification or entrenchment around it."

When he was 14 years old, Kimball worked in his father's blacksmith shop in the Bloomfield area west of Canandaigua and east of Avon. His observations of the area are quoted in his biography, Life of Heber C. Kimball, on p. 25:

"From the time Father Bosley located near Avon, he found and plowed up axes and irons, and had sufficient to make his mill irons, and had always abundance of iron on hand without purchasing. 

"In the towns of Bloomfield, Victor, Manchester, and in the regions round about, there were hills upon the tops of which were entrenchments and fortifications, and in them were human bones, axes, tomahawks, points of arrows, beads and pipes, which were frequently found; and it was a common occurrence in the country to plow up axes, which I have done many times myself.

"I have visited the fortifications on the tops of those hills frequently, and the one near Bloomfield I have crossed hundreds of times, which is on the bluff of Honeyoye River, and the outlet of Honeyoye Lake....

"The hill Cumorah is a high hill for that country, and had the appearance of a fortification or entrenchment around it. In the State of New York, probably there are hundreds of these fortifications which are now visible, and I have seen them in many other parts of the United States."

Heber's biographer, Elder Orson F. Whitney of the Quorum of the Twelve, commented "Readers of the Book of Mormon will remember that in this very region, according to that sacred record, the final battles were fought between the Nephites and Lamanites. At the hill Cumorah, the Nephites made their last stand prior to their utter extermination, A.D., 385.

"Thus was Heber preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles, above the graves of the ancients of Israel, whose records with the fullness of that Gospel, and the relics of their prowess and civilization, were now 'whispering from the dust.'"

But still, this description gives us no specifics about which of the hills was the actual hill Cumorah.

For that, we must refer to President Cowdery's description in Letter VII:

You are acquainted with the mail road from Palmyra, Wayne Co. to Canandaigua, Ontario Co. N.Y. and also, as you pass from the former to the latter place, before arriving at the little village of Manchester, say from three to four, or about four miles from Palmyra, you pass a large hill on the east side of the road. Why I say large, is because it is as large perhaps, as any in that country. To a person acquainted with this road, a description would be unnecessary, as it is the largest and rises the highest of any on that rout. The north end rises quite sudden until it assumes a level with the more southerly extremity, and I think I may say an elevation higher than at the south a short distance, say half or three fourths of a mile. As you pass toward canandaigua it lessens gradually until the surface assumes its common level, or is broken by other smaller hills or ridges, water courses and ravines. I think I am justified in saying that this is the highest hill for some distance round, and I am certain that its appearance, as it rises so suddenly from a plain on the north, must attract the notice of the traveller as he passes by.

At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/89

_____

We find it fascinating that the Church built the Visitors Center at this location by relying on President Cowdery's Letter VII, but the displays and literature in the Visitors Center never mention Letter VII today. 

Members of the Church have to dig hard to find out what President Cowdery and the other prophets and apostles have taught about the New York hill Cumorah.








Saturday, March 17, 2018

New Oliver Cowdery Memorial - Palmyra

Many readers know we bought property near Palmyra which is becoming the "Oliver Cowdery Memorial" site.

I'm going to discuss it at the Book of Mormon conference on April 6th, so I'm not going to discuss the details on this blog, but so many people have asked about it I wanted to at least explain where it is.

When he described the Hill  Cumorah in Letter VII, President Cowdery wrote:

You are acquainted with the mail road from Palmyra, Wayne Co. to Canandaigua, Ontario Co. N.Y. and also, as you pass from the former to the latter place, before arriving at the little village of Manchester, say from three to four, or about four miles from Palmyra, you pass a large hill on the east side of the road.

Quotation from the Joseph Smith Papers, History, 1834-1836,
http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/89
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The new Oliver Cowdery Memorial is on this very mail road. It's the perfect location to explain President Cowdery's role in the Restoration, his connections with Palmyra and the Hill Cumorah, and the importance of Cumorah in Church history and the Book of Mormon.

Here's the map of the area, showing the location of the memorial.


This map is adapted from lds.org, here:

https://history.lds.org/site/historic-sites/new-york/palmyra/interactive-map?lang=eng

Someday, I hope the exhibits are on display on top of the Hill Cumorah, where people should be learning about the importance of this site.

Eventually that will happen.

But until then, the thousands of annual visitors to Palmyra will be driving between the Hill Cumorah and the Sacred Grove. They will all drive by the Oliver Cowdery Memorial in both directions.

Now they can stop learn all about Letter VII, the words of the prophets, the 3 reasons to visit Cumorah, and how Cumorah fits with the North American setting.

This is going to be an epic summer of education about Church history and the Book of Mormon.

Saturday, March 10, 2018

David Whitmer and Cumorah

David Whitmer

Proponents of M2C (the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory) claim that the "real" Cumorah of Mormon 6:6 is in southern Mexico. They claim the the hill in New York where Joseph found the plates was incorrectly named Cumorah by early Church members, but this is a false tradition. 

To accept M2C, you have to disbelieve two of the three main witnesses to the Book of Mormon: Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer. The M2C proponents make every effort to persuade you these two men were not reliable witnesses when it comes to the issue of Cumorah being in New York.

By contrast, to accept the North American (or Heartland) setting, you fully embrace what these two men said.

I'll put it another way. We have an official report from two Apostles, written to the President of the Church and the Quorum of the Twelve, regarding their interview with one of the Three Witnesses, and the M2C intellectuals want you to believe it is not credible.

M2C proponents take offense when I point this out. I've given plenty of examples of their treatment of Oliver Cowdery. In this post I'll give some examples of how they have treated David Whitmer.

I think it's inexcusable for the M2C intellectuals to reject the teachings of the prophets about the New York Cumorah, especially when the only reason to do so is to justify their preferred Mesoamerican setting.

This is all the worse because the New York Cumorah does not necessarily exclude Mesoamerica as a possible setting for some Book of Mormon events. I don't think it's a good fit, but others do, and that's fine with me, so long as they don't reject what the prophets have taught about the New York Cumorah.

Here is the problem for M2C propnents.

In 1878 Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith, stopped in Richmond and met with David Whitmer who was then 73 years old. The two Apostles sent a formal report of their interview to President John Taylor and the Council of the Twelve. It was published in theMillennial Star (Vol. 40, No. 49, Dec. 9, 1878, p. 769, online here, scroll down to Dec. 9 and open the first file) titled “Report of Elders Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith.” 

During the interview, Whitmer said he, Oliver and Joseph were riding in a wagon on the way to Fayette when a man appeared next to the wagon. "I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, “No, I am going to Cumorah.’ This name was something new to me, I did not know what Cumorah meant. We all gazed at him and at each other, and as I looked round enquiringly of Joseph the old man instantly disappeared, so that I did not see him again....It was the messenger who had the plates, who had taken them from Joseph just prior to our starting from Harmony." 

The M2C intellectuals don't like this interview because Whitmer recalls a divine messenger himself using the term Cumorah to describe the site in New York. (In this interview, Whitmer did not identify the individual, but in two other accounts, he claimed it was one of the three Nephites, as I explain below.) Whitmer had never heard the word Cumorah and didn't know what it meant, which makes sense because this occurred in 1829 and while he had just witnessed the plates (and much more) a few days previously, the Book of Mormon was yet to be published. Whitmer was with Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith when the messenger mentioned Cumorah. If Whitmer was right, then everything the M2C intellectuals say about New York Cumorah collapses; i.e., the early Saints knew New York was in Cumorah because a divine messenger told them. 

Before I give examples of how M2C intellectuals deal with Whitmer's 1878 interview, here's a comment about witnesses and testimony.
_____________________

Early in my career I was a prosecutor. Much of the job required an assessment of the credibility of witnesses. In most cases, I evaluated witness statements taken by the police or investigators, comparing different versions of events as related by different people. I interviewed witnesses, examined and cross-examined them in court, etc. In my opinion, Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer are exceptionally reliable witnesses.

In court, judges instruct the jury how to evaluate witnesses. Here are some model jury instructions that we could use to evaluate Cowdery and Whitmer. I've bolded some key points.

A witness is a person who has knowledge related to this case. You will have to decide whether you believe each witness and how important each witness's testimony is to the case. You may believe all, part, or none of a witness's testimony.

In deciding whether to believe a witness's testimony, you may consider, among other factors, the following:

(a) How well did the witness see, hear, or otherwise sense what he or she described in court?

(b) How well did the witness remember and describe what happened?

(c) How did the witness look, act, and speak while testifying?

(d) Did the witness have any reason to say something that was not true? Did the witness show any bias or prejudice? Did the witness have a personal relationship with any of the parties involved in the case? Does the witness have a personal stake in how this case is decided?

(e) What was the witness's attitude toward this case or about giving testimony?

Sometimes a witness may say something that is not consistent with something else he or she said. Sometimes different witnesses will give different versions of what happened. People often forget things or make mistakes in what they remember. Also, two people may see the same event but remember it differently. You may consider these differences, but do not decide that testimony is untrue just because it differs from other testimony.

However, if you decide that a witness deliberately testified untruthfully about something important, you may choose not to believe anything that witness said. On the other hand, if you think the witness testified untruthfully about some things but told the truth about others, you may accept the part you think is true and ignore the rest.

Do not make any decision simply because there were more witnesses on one side than on the other. If you believe it is true, the testimony of a single witness is enough to prove a fact.
_________________________

Now, what do M2C intellectuals say about David Whitmer?

For convenience, I'll post the entire interview at the end of this post. But first, here are some examples of how M2C intellectuals handle this interview. Quotations are in blue

At the outset, I note that the citation cartel rarely provide a citation to the 1878 Whitmer interview that anyone can find. If they refer to the interview at all, they usually quote the excerpt from the interview about Whitmer's experience as one of the Three Witnesses, and then cite Lyndon Cook's 1982 book, David Whitmer Interviews, which is out of print (used price is $47.49 on Amazon). Examples from FAIR MORMON are here and here. Matt Roper cites Cook here. John Welch does the same thing in Opening the Heavens, p. 299, as does Jeff Lindsay here, and there are many other examples. Another oft-cited book, Richard Lloyd Anderson's otherwise excellent and detailed Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses, doesn't even mention the 1878 interview. 

Brant Gardner, 2015: Footnote 22, p. 375, Traditions of the Fathers"The earliest possible connection between the New York hill and the Book of Mormon Cumorah comes from an 1878 interview with David Whitmer by Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith, 'Report of Elders Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith,' 772-73: [quoting the Cumorah incident] 
[I give full credit to Gardner for quoting from the interview, even if he buried it in a footnote. But he gives a page reference without a citation, so no one can look it up. Hopefully, this is just a typo. I comment on the phrase "earliest possible connection" below, where FAIR MORMON used the nearly identical phrase, "earliest possible association."] 
This report [the Whitmer interview] would be much more conclusive had it not been recorded nearly fifty years later. The passage of time and the accepted designation of “Cumorah” as the name of the New York hill by the time of the recollection argue against the second-hand report from Whitmer as being a definitive statement." 
[As a thoughtful scholar, Gardner recognizes that the Whitmer statement destroys the Mesoamericanist theory that Joseph Smith belatedly adopted the tradition, created by unknown early Saints, that the New York hill was the Book of Mormon Cumorah. Gardner undermines Whitmer as best he can by noting the passage of time, but his second argument--that Whitmer's memory is tainted by the "accepted designation"--inverts the evidence. Whitmer's testimony demonstrates that he heard a divine messenger refer to Cumorah before he, Whitmer, had ever heard the word. He didn't even know what it meant. To the extent there was an "accepted designation" among the early Saints, this testimony indicates Whitmer himself may have been the one to initiate the tradition--because he heard it directly from a divine messenger.]  

Gardner has also commented on this in response to various internet forums, such ashere. He wrote, "The name Cumorah became attributed late and appears because it had become the way to refer to the hill. There is no early documentation (1830 and before) from Joseph indicating that he ever used that term. He came to it later. 
[This is purely Gardner's inference; he has no evidence that Joseph "came to it later" because neither Joseph nor anyone else ever said or wrote that he came to it later. In fact, Whitmer's testimony is evidence that Joseph knew Cumorah was in New York at least by summer of 1829, since Joseph was present when Whitmer heard the term. According to Parley P. Pratt, during his 1830 mission to the Delaware Indians, Cowdery told them the Book of Mormon “was hid in the earth by Moroni in a hill called by him, Cumorah, which hill is now in the state of New York, near the village of Palmyra.” Both of these are evidences of "early use" that was oral, not written.] 
When you cite people like Whitmer, you are citing remembrances from 50 years later. That isn’t documentary evidence that the name was used earlier, only that it became associated and was used later. 
[Gardner flat out contradicts Whitmer's testimony, based on nothing but his effort to support his unfounded insistence that Cumorah is in Mesoamerica. Gardner's view is supported by Loren Blake Spendlove and other M2C intellectuals.] 
The documentation you note is all of that type. It is referential and later. It was unquestionably an early identification, but not one that can be traced directly to Joseph or from him back to Moroni."
[Notice that Gardner is deflecting from the point. Whitmer says he learned about Cumorah directly from a heavenly messenger. Gardner rejects that testimony and insists on written documentation from Joseph (or from Joseph back to Moroni), which he knows does not yet exist. Gardner rejects the testimony of one of the Three Witnesses, as do all M2C intellectuals. They have to (they think).]

Michael Ash: Ash wrote a two-page summary demonstrating Whitmer's consistency and credibility, published by FAIR MORMON here. While he refers to several of Whitmer's statements and offers several extended quotations, he never mentions the 1878 interview. In a separate piece, Ash writes that he had previously "pointed out that the hill in New York known as Cumorah was probably not the Cumorah of Book of Mormon times and that the name was likely given to the New York hill by early Latter-day Saints." He wrote another article in which he states that the claim “The Cumorah of the Book of Mormon is the same hill in New York from which Joseph retrieved the plates” is "problematic" and refers to "the name of the New York hill" being "assigned by the early Saints." He writes, "It’s certainly possible that Joseph accepted the early LDS designation of the New York hill as Cumorah, but the fact that he never called it Cumorah suggests that he never received a revelation on the issue." 

[Ash doesn't provide any evidence to support this theory of "accepted designation" and he doesn't mention Whitmer at all. Perhaps Ash has addressed the Whitmer interview somewhere else--links to his Mormonfortress are broken--but at least in these examples, his approach to the 1878 interview seems to be to ignore it completely.] 

[Gardner and Ash are just two of the M2C intellectuals to adopt this idea of "accepted designation." Critics have picked upon this Mesoamericanist theme that Joseph "accepted the early LDS designation." In response to Ash's article (I'm not providing the link, but anyone who wants to find it can google it), one asked, "Who, per Ash, is leading who here? Who constitutes the "LDS" that are coming up with geographic ideas that Joseph then "accepts?" If Pratt or Cowdery had suggested that Cumorah was another name for Bunker Hill in Boston, or Pike's Peak in Clorado, would Joseph have then "accepted" this as Church doctrine?" Obviously that's ridicule, but the point is well made. In my view, the Mesoamericanist theme is inconsistent not only with the historical record but with the basic premise that Joseph, as the Prophet, was the leader.]

FAIRMORMON: Their web page excerpts part of the 1878 interview with approval here, and they acknowledge the meeting with a divine messenger here, but they use this language to question its reliability: 
"A late account from David Whitmer is the earliest possible association of the name with the New York hill, though it is long after the fact:" 
[It's true that the 1878 interview was "late" and "long after the fact," but does that render it unreliable as FAIR implies? The phrase "earliest possible association" has two connotations. It could mean that no earlier association was possible; i.e., that Moroni or another divine messenger could not have told anyone, including Joseph Smith, that Cumorah was in New York prior to the time Whitmer heard it. Of course, that's nonsense; we know Moroni instructed Joseph for four years before turning over the plates, but what that instruction entailed is mostly unknown. The other connotation, that Whitmer's recollection itself is only a "possible" association because it is unreliable, appears to be what FAIR intended, as shown by the dual reference to the timing issue in one sentence.] 
After quoting the passage, FAIR writes: "Even this use of the term does not identify any specific site with Cumorah." 
[In the passage, Whitmer says he offered the messenger a ride, but he said, "No I am going to Cumorah." Whitmer, Cowdery and Joseph were traveling from Harmony to Fayette, so the Hill Cumorah would not be on their way. FAIR makes a good point that the messenger did not identify any specific site; Cumorah was both a hill and a land in the Book of Mormon, but the hill was in the land. Perhaps FAIR wants readers to believe the messenger was referring to southern Mexico on this occasion?]

Matthew Roper, 2004: "Limited Geography and the Book of Mormon: Historical Antecedents and Early Interpretations," available here. Traditions about the New York Hill Cumorah
The Book of Mormon seems to imply that the hill Cumorah was near the narrow neck of land, but a long Latter-day Saint tradition links the hill Cumorah with the hill in New York. 
[The "but" here implies there is a conflict because the narrow neck of land must be far from New York. In the North American model, the narrow neck is within a hundred miles of the New York Cumorah. The discrepancy Roper alludes to arises from the Sorenson translation of the Book of Mormon. Sorenson thinks there is only one narrow neck, but the text doesn't require that. In fact, the text contradicts the notion that there is only one narrow neck, as I explain in Moroni's America.] 
How did the hill in New York come to be known as the hill Cumorah? How have subsequent Latter-day Saints reconciled the apparent discrepancy between the description in the Book of Mormon and the tradition that both the Jaredites and Nephites met their end in New York? 
[It's only an apparent discrepancy for M2C intellectuals.]

First, some Latter-day Saint scholars have argued that early Saints may have named the hill in New York Cumorah, perhaps assuming that the New York drumlin and the hill mentioned by Mormon were
the same because they were both the repository of plates. 

[I wish there was a citation here. I'd like to know who came up with this argument. Even better, I'd like to know who the "early Saints" were who named the hill based on assumptions.]

They note that Joseph Smith’s own account of the appearance of Moroni fails to name the hill where the plates were found (JS—H 1:51) and that the earliest reference to the New York hill as Cumorah comes not from Joseph Smith but from Oliver Cowdery and W. W. Phelps. 

[Joseph Smith incorporated Cowdery's Letter VII into his personal history before the version JS-H was written. As I explain in my book, Moroni's History, Letter VII was copied into the same book in which JS-H was first recorded.] 

Was this association simply an inference drawn by the early brethren, or was it based on revelation?

[These are not mutually exclusive categories. Cowdery was present at several revelatory events, including the ministering of angels.]

At least one piece of evidence gives the impression that the association did not originate from mere speculation. On several occasions late in his life, David Whitmer reportedly referred to an incident in
which he was traveling in a wagon with Joseph and Oliver on the way to Whitmer’s home in Fayette, New York. 

[Excellent! Roper refers to "several occasions" here. So far as I know, there were three, of which Roper quotes one and offers a citation regarding another--the 1878 interview. Unfortunately, he cites only Cook's difficult-to-find book, but at least Roper offers this quotation:]

The Prophet, & I were riding in a wagon, & an aged man about 5 feet 10 heavey Set & on his back an old fashioned Armey knapsack Straped over his Shoulders & Something Square in it, & he walked alongside of the Wagon & Wiped the Sweat off his face, Smileing very Pleasant David asked him to ride and he replied I am going across to the hill Comorah.

According to Whitmer, Joseph later told David that they had seen one of the Nephite prophets.¹³² 

Footnote 132. Edward Stevenson, interview with David Whitmer, 22–23 December 1877, in
David Whitmer Interviews, ed. Lyndon W. Cook (Orem, UT: Grandin Book, 1991), 13;
Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith, interview with David Whitmer, 7–8 September 1878, in

David Whitmer Interviews, 27

The earliest accounts of this incident were recorded over forty-eight years after the event. 

[The implication here being that Whitmer's statement was too remote from the incident to be reliable.] 

If this account is accurate, then the association between the name Cumorah and the hill near Joseph’s home may not have been based merely on personal assumption.¹³³ 

[Fair enough, although Roper remains equivocal here. If this account is accurate, the knowledge about Cumorah could not have been based on personal assumption.]                                                                                           
Footnote 133: Given that the earliest account of this experience was recorded forty-eight years
after the event, it is possible that Whitmer’s reference to “Comorah” was influenced by
Book of Mormon geographical thinking of the time. [This is the same inversion argument that Gardner made, which I addressed above.]

Separately, Matthew Roper rationalizes away the New York setting for Joseph Smith's reference to Cumorah in D&C 128 by writing, "The Book of Mormon contains the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the ‘glad tidings’ of the Restoration, so the Book of Mormon is indeed glad tidings from Cumorah, whether that hill was actually in New York or somewhere else.” 

[When read in context, I think Roper's spin doesn't work. The "glad tidings from Cumorah" is not a generalized restoration of the gospel, but, according to the scripture, Moroni's visit to Joseph--which took place in New York. Here is the verse in context, showing all the events took place in the general region of the land of Cumorah: "20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!"]

[Note: it bears repeating that when Joseph sent the letter to the Times and Seasons to be published, that same edition published another excerpt from his history. That history was taken from the same book into which Cowdery's Letter VII had been copied--at Joseph's specific direction. Whether Joseph, his scribes, or his brother William had possession of the book at that time is unknown, but it is implausible that Joseph was referring to anywhere but the New York Cumorah when he wrote what became Section 128.] 

John Sorenson. Sorenson has a lot to say about Cumorah in An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon and in Mormon's Codex, but so far as I can tell, he never mentions David Whitmer on that topic. Few of the books on Book of Mormon geography do, actually. With few exceptions, M2C intellectualstend to avoid David Whitmer much like they avoid Cowdery's Letter VII. 

But as I've shown here, when they do reluctantly address the statements of these witnesses--two of the Three Witnesses--they discredit their testimony about Cumorah.

_____________________

The 1878 Interview

In my view, there is nothing in the following testimony that suggests David Whitmer was anything other than lucid, specific, clear, and confident; i.e., there is no reason to doubt this testimony, apart from 1) the content that some people might find inherently difficult to believe (angels, miraculous plates, etc.) and 2) the implications for the Mesoamerican setting. While time disparity between an event and testimony is a factor, people do remember dramatic events better than mundane ones. 

Plus, Whitmer's testimony is corroborated by other people and by multiple interviews in which he related the same events.

I've made some comments about the testimony below.


REPORT OF ELDERS ORSON PRATT AND JOSEPH F. SMITH.
NEW YORK CITY, September 17, 1878.
President John Taylor and Council of the Twelve:
Dear Brethren. – We desire to make the following hastily written report of our mission to the Eastern States, which we would have made from time to time as we journeyed along, but for the hurry and inconvenience of daily travel.
...
Agreeable to appointment we met Mr. Whitmer and his friends, at his office, but as the place was too public for private conversation and as it seemed impossible to obtain a private personal interview with David Whitmer, by himself, we invited him and such of his friends as he saw proper to fetch along, to our room in the hotel. Mr. Whitmer apologized for not inviting us to his house, as it was “wash day,” and he and his wife were “worn out” with the extra labor, exposure, &c, &c., consequent upon rebuilding since the cyclone. He accepted our invitation to our room and brought with him James R. B. Vancleave, (a fine looking, intelligent young newspaper man of Chicago, who is paying his addresses to Miss Josephine Schweich grand-daughter of David Whitmer) George Schweich, (grandson), John C. Whitmer, (son of Jacob), W.W. Warner, and another person whose name we did not learn. In the presence of these the following, in substance, as noticed in brother Joseph F. Smith’s journal, is the account of the interview.
Elder O. Pratt to D. Whitmer, Can you tell the date of the bestowal of the Apostleship upon Joseph, by Peter, James and John?
D.W. I do not know, Joseph never told me. I can only tell you what I know, for I will not testify to anything I do not know.

[This is a sign of an excellent witness. He declines to speculate and reaffirms that he will only testify from personal knowledge.]
J.F.S. to D.W. Did Oliver Cowdery die here in Richmond?
D.W. Yes, he lived here, I think, about one year before his death. He died in my father’s house right here, in January, 1849 Phineas Young was here at the time.
Elder O.P. Do you remember what time you saw the plates?
D.W. It was in June, 1829—the latter part of the month, and the eight witnesses saw them, I think, the next day or the day after.  (i.e. one or two days after). [Here he is careful to relate he isn't sure of the exact day, another sign of a good witness.[ Joseph showed them the plates himself, but the angel showed us (the three witnesses) the plates, as I suppose to fulfil the words of the book itself. Martin Harris was not with us at this time, he obtained a view of them afterwards, (the same day).  Joseph, Oliver and myself were together when I saw them. We not only saw the plates of the Book of Mormon but also the brass plates, the plates of the Book of Ether, the plates containing the records of the wickedness and secret combinations of the people of the world down to the time of their being engraved, and many other plates. The fact is it was just as though Joseph, Oliver and I were sitting just here on a log, when we were overshadowed by a light, it was not like the light of the sun nor like that of a fire, but more glorious and beautiful. It extended away round us, I cannot tell how far, but in the midst of this light about as far off as he sits (pointing to John C. Whitmer sitting a few feet from him), [excellent specificity] there appeared as it were, a table with many records or plates upon it, besides the plates of the Book of Mormon, also the Sword of Laban, the directors—i.e., the ball which Lehi had, and the Interpreters. I saw them just as plain as I see this bed (striking the bed beside him with his hand),[more specificity and physicality] and I heard the voice of the Lord, as distinctly as I ever heard anything in my life, declaring that the records of the plates of the Book of Mormon were translated by the gift and power of God.”
Elder O.P.—Did you see the Angel at this time?
D.W.—Yes; he stood before us, our testimony as recorded in the Book of Mormon is strictly and absolutely true, just as it is there written. Before I knew Joseph, I had heard about him and the plates from persons who declared they knew he had them, and swore they would get them from him. Where Oliver Cowdery went to Pennsylvania, he promised to write me what he should learn about these matters, which he did. He wrote me that Joseph had told him his secret thoughts, and all he had meditated about going to see him, which no man on earth knew, as he supposed, but himself, and so he stopped to write for Joseph.
Soon after this, Joseph sent for me (D.W.) to come to Harmony to get him and Oliver and bring them to my father’s house. I did not know what to do, I was pressed with my work. I had some 20 acres to plow, so I concluded I would finish plowing and then go, I got up one morning to go to work as usual, and on going to the field, found between 5 and 7 acres of my ground had been plowed during the night.
I don’t know who did it; but it was done just as I would have done it myself, and the plow was left standing in the furrow. [More detail. He's relating it as he saw it that day, just as he did with the plates and the angel.]
This enabled me to start sooner. When I arrived at Harmony, Joseph and Oliver were coming toward me, and met me some distance from the house, Oliver told me that Joseph had informed him when I started from home, where I had stopped the first night, how I read the sign at the tavern, where I stopped the next night, etc., and that I would be there that day before dinner, and this was why they had come out to meet me; all of which was exactly as Joseph had told Oliver, at which I was greatly astonished. When I was returning to Fayette with Joseph and Oliver all of us riding in the wagon, Oliver and I on an old fashioned wooden spring seat and Joseph behind us, while traveling along in a clear open place, a very pleasant, nice-looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon who saluted us with, “good morning, it is very warm,” at the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand. We returned the salutation, and by a sign from Joseph I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, “No, I am going to Cumorah.’ This name was something new to me, I did not know what Cumorah meant. [This is a key. He remembers specifically hearing the word for the first time and not knowing what it meant. This makes sense because the Book of Mormon had not been published at this point, and he had not been helping with the translation. The entire account is replete with physical details. When compared with the Mesoamericanist theory that unknown Saints at an unknown time made the connection on their own, Whitmer's testimony is especially credible.]  We all gazed at him and at each other, and as I looked round enquiringly of Joseph the old man instantly disappeared, so that I did not see him again.
J.F.S.—Did you notice his appearance?
D.W.—I should think I did, he was, I should think, about 5 feet 8 or 9 inches tall and heavy set, about such a man as James Vancleave there, but heavier, his face was as large, he was dressed in a suit of brown woolen clothes, his hair and beard were white like Brother Pratt’s, but his beard was not so heavy. [More excellent detail.] I also remember that he had on his back a sort of knapsack with something in, shaped like a book. It was the messenger who had the plates, who had taken them from Joseph just prior to our starting from Harmony. Soon after our arrival home, I saw something which led me to the belief that the plates were placed or concealed in my father’s barn I frankly asked Joseph if my supposition was right, and he told me it was. Sometime after this, my mother was going to milk the cows, when she was met out near the yard by the same old man (judging by her description of him) who said to her, “You have been very faithful and diligent in your labors, but you are tried because of the increase of your toil, it is proper therefore that you should receive a witness that your faith may be strengthened!”  Thereupon he showed her the plates. My father and mother had a large family of their own, the addition to it therefore of Joseph, his wife Emma and Oliver very greatly increased the toil and anxiety of my mother. And although she had never complained she had sometimes felt that her labor was too much, or at least she was perhaps beginning to feel so. This circumstance, however, completely removed all such feelings, and nerved her up for her increased responsibilities.
Elder O.P.—Have you any idea when the other records will be brought forth?
D.W. – When we see things in the spirit and by the power of God they seem to be right here—the present signs of the times indicate the near approach of the coming forth of the other plates, but when it will be I cannot tell. The three Nephites are at work among the lost tribes and elsewhere. John the Revelator is at work, and I believe the time will come suddenly, before we are prepared for it.
Elder O.P. – Have you in your possession the original Mss. of the Book of Mormon?
D.W.—I have, they are in O. Cowdery’s hand writing. He placed them in my care at his death, and charged me to preserve them as long as I lived; they are safe and well preserved.
J.F.S.—What will be done with them at your death?
D.W.—I will leave them to my nephew, David Whitmer, son of my brother Jacob, and my name sake.
O.P. – Would you not part with them to a purchaser?
D.W.—No. Oliver charged me to keep them, and Joseph said my father’s house should keep the records. I consider these things sacred, and would not part with nor barter them for money.
J.F.S.—We would not offer you money in the light of bartering for the Mss., but we would like to see them preserved in some manner where they would be safe from casualties and from the caprices of men, in some institution that will not die as man does.
D.W.—That is all right. While camping around here in a tent, all my effects exposed to the weather, everything in the trunk where the Mss. were kept became mouldy, etc., but they were preserved, not even being discolored, (we supposed his camping in a tent, etc., had reference to his circumstances after the cyclone in June last, except only, as he and others affirm, the room in which the Mss. were kept. That was the only part of the house which was not demolished, and even the ceiling of that room was but little impaired. “Do you think,” said Philander Page, a son of Hiram Page, one of the eight witnesses, “that the Almighty cannot take care of his own?”
Next day (Sunday, Sept. 8) Mr. Whitmer invited us to his house where, in the presence of David Whitmer, Esq., (son of Jacob) Philander Page, J.R.B. Vancleave, David J. Whitmer, (son of David the witness) George Schweich, (grandson of David) Colonel Childs and others David Whitmer brought out the Mss. of the Book of Mormon. We examined them closely and those who knew the handwriting pronounced the whole of them, excepting comparatively a few pages, to be in the handwriting of Oliver Cowdery. It was thought that these few pages were in the handwritings of Emma Smith and John and Christian Whitmer.
We found that the names of the eleven witnesses were, however, subscribed in the handwriting of Oliver Cowdery. When the question was asked Mr. Whitmer if he and the other witnesses did or did not sign the testimonies themselves, Mr. W. replied, “each signed his own name.” “Then where are the original signatures?” D.W.—I don’t know, I suppose Oliver copied them, but this I know is an exact copy.  Some one suggested that he being the last one left of the 11 witnesses, he ought to certify to this copy.  Lawyer D. Whitmer (Jacobs son) suggested that he had better reflect about it first and be very cautious.
J.F.S. suggested that perhaps there were two copies of the manuscripts, but Mr. Whitmer replied that according to the best of his knowledge there never was but the one copy. Herein of course he is evidently uninformed. [It seems to me that Whitmer was correct here. There was one original and one copy (the printer's copy). The copy Whitmer had has recently been published. The original, which Cowdery wrote from the Prophet's dictation, was mostly destroyed by water damage when it was in a time capsule placed in a cornerstone in Nauvoo.]
Elder O. Pratt again felt closely after the the subject of procuring the Mss., but we found that nothing would move him on this point. The whole Whitmer family are deeply impressed with the sacredness of this relic. And so thoroughly imbued are they with the idea and faith that it is under the immediate protection of the Almighty, that in their estimation not only are the Mss. themselves safe from all possible contingencies, but that they are a source of protection to the place or house in which they may be kept, and, it may be to those who have possession of them. Another reason why they cling to this relic is that David Whitmer has reorganized the “Church of Christ” with six Elders and two priests, after the pattern of the 1st organization, the two priests as we suppose representing Joseph and Oliver as holding the Aaronic priesthood from the hand of John the Baptist. David and John Whitmer were two of these six elders, four others, viz. John C. Whitmer, W.W. Warner, Philander Page, and John Short, having been ordained by David and John. And as the recent death of John has diminished the number to five Elders it would be interesting to know if, according to their strict construction the vacancy can be filled.
Their creed is to preach nothing but the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Mr. Whitmer and others called on us again in the evening at the hotel, and conversed during the evening, reiterating many things before stated. Upon inquiry, Mr. Whitmer informed us that Oliver Cowdery had told him all about his visiting the Church at Council Bluffs, and of his having been rebaptized. He said, “Oliver died the happiest man I ever saw, after shaking hands with the family and kissing his wife and daughter, he said “Now I lay me down for the last time, I am going to my Savior,” and died immediately with a smile on his face.
In response to some questions, Mr. Whitmer said: “Many things have been revealed which were designed only for the Church, and which the world cannot comprehend, but the Book of Mormon and those testimonies therein given were to go to all the world.”
We replied, “Yes, and we have sent that Book to the Danes, the Swedes, the Spanish, the Italians, the French, the Germans, the Welch, and to the Islands of the Sea, the book even having been translated into Hindoostanee. So you see the Church has not been idle.” To this he made no reply. In parting with him, he said, “This may be the last time I shall ever see you in the flesh, so farewell.”
This ended our interview with the last remaining witness who saw the plates of the Book of Mormon, yet not the last witness of its truth, for now such witnesses are multiplied into tens of thousands.   
[NOTE: I copied this version from here because the text is easier to read than in the BYU version.]

Additional corroborating evidence:

1. The first source for the "David Whitmer learning about Cumorah" story came from Matt Roper's FARMS article, "Limited Geography and the Book of Mormon: Historical Antecedents and Early Interpretations" (FARMS Review, 2004, pp. 225-76). cited above. It is from an interview between David Whitmer and Edward Stevenson in December 1877.

"The Prophet, & I were riding in a wagon, & an aged man about 5 feet 10 heavey Set & on his back an old fashioned Armey knapsack Straped over his Shoulders & Something Square in it, & he walked alongside of the Wagon and Wiped the Sweat off his face, Smileing very Pleasant David asked him to ride and he replied I am going across to the hill Cumorah." (spelling and punctuation as in original)

2. The next year Whitmer was interviewed by Elders Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith, as mentioned above.

3. Edward Stevenson interviewed Whitmer again in 1886, which was discussed in the Instructor 22 (1887): 55:

"While on the return journey from Palmyra, David noticed a somewhat aged-looking man who approached them on the road. He had a very pleasant face, about which, however, there seemed something peculiar, and he carried a knapsack on his back fastened with straps which crossed his breast. David asked him to take a ride, but he declined, saying: 'I am going over to Cumorah,' and then disappeared very suddenly, though there was no chance for him to secrete himself in the open country through which the party was then passing. All felt very strange concerning this personage and the Prophet was besought to inquire of the Lord concerning him. Shortly afterwards, David relates, the Prophet looked very white but with a heavenly appearance and said their visitor was one of the three Nephites to whom the Savior gave the promise of life on earth until He should come in power. After arriving home, David again saw this personage, and mother Whitmer, who was very kind to Joseph Smith, is said to have seen not only this Nephite, but to have also been shown by him the sealed and unsealed portions of the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated."

4. Joseph F. Smith wrote a journal entry for April 25, 1918, apparently based on his interview with Whitmer in 1878:

"When they started for New York, Joseph and Emma were on the hind seat (of the wagon) and Oliver and David on the front seat. In the middle of the prairie, all of the sudden, there appeared a man walking along the road, and David said he raised his hat and rubbed his brow as if he were a little warm, and said good morning to them and they said good morning. Oliver and David looked at each other and began to marvel and wonder: Where did he come from, and what does this mean? And Joseph said, 'Ask him to ride.' So David, who was teamster, asked him if he would get in and ride with them. He said, 'No, I'm just going over to Cumorah.' David said, 'Cumorah? Cumorah? What does that mean?' He had never heard of Cumorah, and he said, 'I thought I knew this country all around here, but I never heard of Cumorah,' and he inquired about it. While he was looking around and trying to ascertain what the mystery was, the man was gone, and when he looked back he did not see him anymore. Then he demanded, 'What does it mean?' Joseph informed him that the man was Moroni, and that the bundle on his back contained plates which Joseph had delivered to him before they departed from Harmony, Susquehanna County, and that he was taking them for safety, and would return them when he (Joseph) reached father Whitmer's home. There was a long talk about this."

5. Andrew Jenson's LDS Biographical Encyclopedia (Vol. 1, p. 283) includes this bio of David Whitmer's mother, Mary Musselman Whitmer ("the only woman who saw the plates of the Book of Mormon"):


"Her son, David Whitmer, before his death, testified on several occasions that his mother had seen the plates, and when Elders Edward Stevenson and Andrew Jenson visited Richmond, Missouri , in 1888, John C. Whitmer, a grandson of the lady in question, testified in the following language: ?I have heard my grandmother (Mary Musselman Whitmer) say on several occasions that she was shown the plates of the Book of Mormon by a holy angel, whom she always called Brother Nephi. (She undoubtedly refers to Moroni, the angel who had the plates in charge). It was at that time, she said, when the translation was going on at the house of the elder Peter Whitmer, her husband, Joseph Smith with his wife and Oliver Cowdery, whom David Whitmer a short time previous had brought up from Harmony, Pennsylvania, were all boarding with the Whitmers, and my grandmother in having so many extra persons to care for, besides her own large household, was often overloaded with work to such extent that she felt it to be quite a burden. One evening, when (after having done her usual day's work in the house) she went to the barn to milk the cows, she met a stranger carrying something on his back that looked like a knapsack. At first she was a little afraid of him, but when he spoke to her in a kind, friendly tone and began to explain to her the nature of the work which was going on in her house, she was filled with inexpressible joy and satisfaction. He then untied the knapsack and showed her a bundle of plates, which in size and appearance corresponded with the description subsequently given the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. This strange person turned the leaves of the book of plates over, leaf after leaf, and also showed her the engravings upon them; after which he told her to be patient and faithful in bearing her burden a little longer, promising that if she would do so, she should be blessed; and her reward would be sure, if she proved faithful until the end. The personage then suddenly vanished with the plates, and where he went she could not tell. From that moment my grandmother was enabled to perform her household duties with comparative ease, and she felt no more inclination to murmur because her lot was hard.'"

This list is adapted from http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28417 

Tuesday, February 27, 2018

Choice excerpts from Letter VII

Some people find President Cowdery's Letter VII to be a little long, so here are some excerpts to enjoy. These are directly from the version in the Joseph Smith Papers, in Joseph's own history now referred to as History, 1834-1836.

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/89

President Cowdery was as specific as possible when he identified the hill Cumorah. He claimed it was a fact that this hill in New York, from which Joseph obtained the plates from Moroni, was also the setting for the final battles of the Jaredites and the Nephites, as well as the location of Mormon's depository of Nephite records.

Excerpts from Letter VII

You are acquainted with the mail road from Palmyra, Wayne Co. to Canandaigua, Ontario Co. N.Y. 

[Note: President Cowdery wrote these essays as letters to W.W. Phelps, who was living in Missouri at the time. Here, is referring to what is now State Route 21, the road that runs directly in front of the Hill Cumorah Visitors Center today]

and also, as you pass from the former to the latter place, before arriving at the little village of Manchester, say from three to four, or about four miles from Palmyra, you pass a large hill on the east side of the road. Why I say large, is because it is as large perhaps, as any in that country. To a person acquainted with this road, a description would be unnecessary, as it is the largest and rises the highest of any on that rout. 

The north end rises quite sudden until it assumes a level with the more southerly extremity, and I think I may say an elevation higher than at the south a short distance, say half or three fourths of a mile. As you pass toward canandaigua it lessens gradually until the surface assumes its common level, or is broken by other smaller hills or ridges, water courses and ravines. I think I am justified in saying that this is the highest hill for some distance round, and I am certain that its appearance, as it rises so suddenly from a plain on the north, must attract the notice of the traveller as he passes by.


At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.

By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the book of Mormon

[Note: President Cowdery was referring to the original edition of the Book of Mormon, which was not divided into chapter and verse. These pages are now Mormon chapter 6]

you will read Mormon’s account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round this hill Cumorah. (it is printed Camorah, which is an error.) 

[Note: "Camorah" was a typo in the original edition of the Book of Mormon, but it suggests the way Joseph pronounced the word because Oliver wrote phonetically.]

In this vally [sic] fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites—once so highly favored of the Lord, but at that time in darkness, doomed to suffer extermination by the hand of their barbarous and uncivilized brethren. 

From the top of this hill, Mormon, with a few others, after the battle, gazed with horror upon the mangled remains of those who, the day before, were filled with anxiety, hope or doubt. 

A few had fled to the South, who were hunted down by the victorious party, and all who would not deny the Saviour and his religion, were put to death. Mormon himself, according to the record of his son Moroni, was also slain....

He (Mormon), however, by divine appointment, abridged from those records, in his own style and language, a short account of the more important and prominent items, from the days of Lehi to his own time, after which he deposited, as he says, on the 529th page, all the records in this same hill, Cumorah and after gave his small record to his son Moroni, who, as appears from the same, finished, after witnessing the extinction of his people as a nation.

It was not the wicked who overcame the righteous; far from this: it was the wicked against the wicked, and by the wicked the wicked were punished....

This hill, by the Jaredites, was called Ramah: by it, or around it pitched the famous army of Coriantumr their tents.

[Note: see Ether 15:11]

Coriantumr was the last king of the Jaredites The opposing army were to the west, and in this same vally, and near by, from day to day, did that mighty race spill their blood, in wrath, contending, as it were, brother against brother, and father, against son. In this same spot, in full view from the top of this same hill, one may gaze with astonishment upon the ground which was twice covered with the dead and dying of our fellow men. Here may be seen where once sunk to nought the pride and strength of two mighty nations; and here may be contemplated, in solitude, while nothing but the faithful record of Mormon and Moroni is now extant to inform us of the fact, scenes of misery and distress...

In this vale lie commingled, in one mass of ruin the ashes of thousands

[Note: this refers to the Jaredites, of whom there were apparently fewer than 10,000 killed at Cumorah]

and in this vale was destined to consume the fair forms and vigerous [sic] systems of tens of thousands of the human race—blood mixed with blood, flesh with flesh, bones with bones and dust with dust!

[Note: this refers to the Nephites and Lamanites]

Friday, February 9, 2018

The original Gospel Topics essays

Beginning in 2013, the Church has published several "Gospel Topics essays" "to gather accurate information from many different sources and publications and place it in the Gospel Topics section of LDS.org, where the material can more easily be accessed and studied by Church members and other interested parties."

See https://www.lds.org/topics/essays?lang=eng

The original Gospel Topics essays were published in the 1834-1835 Messenger and Advocate in Kirtland, Ohio. Written by Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, President and Assistant President of the Church respectively, these essays dealt with many of the same issues that arise today.

Joseph recognized the importance of these essays and had them copied into his own history as part of his life story. He had them republished in every Church-related newspaper in Nauvoo, Philadelphia, New York, and England. They were published in a special pamphlet. Later, they were republished in Salt Lake City by Joseph F. Smith, Second Counselor in the First Presidency.

The letters dealt not only with Church history, but also what it means to be a prophet, how the Restoration fit in with the Old Testament prophecies, and, of course, the real-world setting of the Book of Mormon, with Cumorah in New York.

I think members of the Church should read President Cowdery's letters today just as they did when Joseph Smith was alive.

Thursday, February 8, 2018

They really don't want you to accept Letter VII

Yesterday LDS Living posted an article titled "What Happened to the Sword of Laban, the Liahona, and Other Artifacts Hidden with the Golden Plates." You can see it here:

http://www.ldsliving.com/What-Happened-to-the-Sword-of-Laban-the-Liahona-and-Other-Artifacts-Hidden-with-the-Gold-Plates/s/87649#comments-href-link

The article is full of misleading information, but it also contributes to the ongoing--and growing--effort on the part of certain LDS intellectuals to persuade members of the Church not to believe early Church leaders.

Regarding the Liahona, the article says, "We know that the Liahona was safely stored until the early 1800s, when Joseph Smith unearthed its resting place. But what happened to it after that?"

There is no historical evidence that Joseph "unearthed" the Liahona. In fact, both Joseph and Oliver specifically identified the contents of Moroni's stone box: the plates, the interpreters, and the breastplate. No Liahona and no sword of Laban.

Then the article falsely claims this: "We know the weapon eventually ended up in the hands of Moroni, who buried the symbolic sword in the same box with the Nephite record, the Urim and Thummim and their accompanying breastplate."

Misleading exhibit in Visitors' Center on Temple Square
showing Moroni burying the Liahona and the sword of Laban
Moroni never said he had the Liahona or the sword of Laban. No historical account describes those items being in the stone box. Instead, the historical accounts all have those items being in Mormon's depository in a separate department of the hill from Moroni's stone box.

They were in the same hill Cumorah in New York, but a different location in the hill.

Church members such as the author of this LDS Living article understandably think the Liahona and the sword of Laban were in Moroni's stone box, thanks to the misleading exhibits in Church visitors' centers and other media and curriculum materials.

So where were the Liahona and the sword of Laban?

The only historical accounts we have explain that they were in Mormon's depository, not in Moroni's stone box.

The notion that the stone box contained the Liahona and the Sword of Laban was developed by promoters of the Mesoamerican/Two-Cumorahs theory (M2C) to explain D&C 17:1 without acknowledging that Oliver Cowdery specifically explained that Mormon's depository was located in the Hill Cumorah in New York (see Letter VII).

Brigham Young and others affirmed that Oliver, Joseph, and Joseph's brothers had visited that depository and had seen the artifacts for themselves.

This is a major problem for M2C intellectuals because they insist that the "real Cumorah" must be in southern Mexico for their theory to work. Therefore, anyone who teaches that Cumorah is in New York must be wrong.

The LDS Living article quotes David Whitmer's statement that he, Joseph and Oliver saw the Liahona and the sword of Laban at the time the angel showed them the plates. This is the only statement to that effect, and there are issues with it that I've discussed before.

The article goes on to falsely claim this:

The only other reference in Church history to the sword comes from the Journal of Discourses. The account tells of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery seeing the sword in a cave when they returned the plates, but this story is not necessarily accepted as truthful.

That sums up M2C scholarship right there: anything that contradicts their narrative "is not necessarily accepted as truthful."

If you want to read more about the many accounts this article ignores, read this article:

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/publications/jbms/13/1/S00006-50be6ae14ef1b5Packer.pdf

I don't know Jannalee Sandau, the author of this article, and I don't blame her for making the false assertions in this article. I suspect she has been educated at BYU and/or CES, which would explain why she doubts the veracity of Brigham Young and other early prophets who taught that the Hill Cumorah is in New York.

This is yet another in the long list of examples of how the M2C intellectuals are successfully indoctrinating LDS people into believing them, the intellectuals, instead of the prophets.