This is part 2 of our analysis of a podcast by Stick of Joseph purporting to analyze Cumorah from the perspective of the Baja theory of geography.
Part 1 is here: https://www.lettervii.com/2026/08/baja-sophistry-cumorah-and-baja.html
In this installment we show how Rosenvall and the Stick of Joseph edited Letter VII to omit Oliver Cowdery's statement that it was a fact that Cumorah is in New York.
It is amazing, incredible, and pure sophistry.
Here's the link to the podcast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFpw-kcMBjQ
We are commenting on the transcript of the podcast.
Original in blue, my comments in red, other quotations in green.
We pick up where part 1 ended:
[7:58]
So here’s what I started doing. And And we won’t go through in every detail, but I want you to see this. I went through and I’m trying to find every quote and I started with the prophets Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and John Taylor. What did they say about this?
The table includes references to geography in general, not to Cumorah, which was the purported topic of this podcast.
End of Part 1.
The first thing to notice in this podcast is how they have largely abandoned the discussion of Cumorah, which was supposedly the point of the podcast.
They used "Cumorah" mainly as clickbait, unfortunately.
But we will address the points they made anyway because viewers deserve to see how the "documentary effect" works by advocating a position using sophistry, misdirection and obfuscation.
The earliest I can get from Joseph Smith is actually in a letter that he wrote that says "the Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of the western tribes of Indians. By it we learn that our western tribes of Indians are descendants of Joseph that was sold in Egypt. And that the land of America is a promised land unto them."
The part they quoted is an accurate excerpt from the Noah Saxton letter, which is available here:
And here:
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-noah-c-saxton-4-january-1833/4
The following part of the podcast is commentary.
So that has to be all of North and South America.
This is merely an assumption by the Baja theorists. As we'll see, it not only does not "have to be" but it cannot be "all of North and South America."
Recall that earlier in their presentation (covered in Part 1 of this blog) they spent a lot of time discussing the term "continent," even referring to the 1828 Webster's dictionary. Viewers might wonder why they did not do that for "land of America." We can see why when we look at the 1828 Webster's definition for "land," which includes these options:
2. Any portion of the solid, superficial part of the globe, whether a kingdom or country, or a particular region. The United States is denominated the land of freedom.
3. Any small portion of the superficial part of the earth or ground. We speak of the quantity of land in a manor. Five hundred acres of land is a large farm.
6. The inhabitants of a country or region; a nation or people.
None of these suggest "continent" or "hemisphere." Instead, "land" refers specifically to a nation or people.
The term "land of America" shows up in only three places in the Joseph Smith Papers. Besides the Noah Saxton letter, it is in an 1834 proclamation by the First Presidency regarding the United States, found here:
Readers can decide whether this term refers to "all of North and South America" or to the United States as it existed at the time. Consider these excerpts:
Our forefathers came to the goodly land of America, to shun persecution and enjoy their religious opinions and rights, as they thought proper;
The "forefathers" to whom Joseph referred were not Spanish or Portuguese, whose explorers were not fleeing persecution and religious freedom.
Earlier the Proclamation explained
whereas the said church, by revelation, commenced removing to the western boundaries of the state of Missouri, where lands were purchased of the government, and where it was calculated to purchase of those who were unwilling to reside with the church as a society, all lands that could be bought, for the purpose of building up a holy city unto God, a New Jerusalem, a place which were desirous to call Zion,... To be obedient to the commandments of our Lord and Savior, some of the leaders of the Church commenced purchasing lands in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, according to the revelations of God, for the city of Zion... We verily believe, knowing that the national and State Constitutions, and the statute laws of the land, and the commandments of the Lord allowed all men to worship as they pleased— that we should be protected, not only by all the law of a free republic, but by every republican throughout the realms of freedom... The Book of Mormon, which we hold equally sacred with the Bible, says, “that a new Jerusalem shall be built up on this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for the which things there has been a type.”... but the inhabitants of Jackson county arrayed themselves against us, because of our faith and belief, and destroyed of our printing establishment, to prevent the spread of the work, and drove men, women, and children from their lands, houses and homes...
After referring to the "land of America," the proclamation continues.
and the Lord, after much tribulation, blessed them, and has said that we should continue to importune for redress and redemption by the hands of those who are placed as rulers, and are in authority over us, according to the laws and constitution of the people, which he has suffered to be established and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles...and for this purpose he has established the constitution of this land by the hands of wise men whom he raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.
Now we seek peace, and ask our rights, even redress and redemption, at the hands of the rulers of this nation: not only our lands and property in Jackson county, but for free trade with all men, and unmolested emigration to any part of the Union,...
In my view, it could hardly be clearer that the "land of America" in this proclamation refers to the United States. And this was written only a year after the Noah Sexton letter.
But the Baja proponents ignore this proclamation (and the Webster's dictionary) and instead tell their readers that the phrase "land of America" means the western hemisphere.
Returning to the podcast.
So the western tribes there it’s I mean it’s not because, here’s what the heart, a heartlander would say. They’d be like, “Oh, it’s a western tribes of the colonies at that point or of America states of what America was.” So it’s like we’re talking about Ohio. That’s how they would normally read it.So just using Joseph Smith quotes I’ve got some things that talk about actually the Rocky Mountains. You’ve got Zelph all those
Zelph is an interesting one because we don’t have anything that Joseph Smith wrote about Zelph. It that’s a second hand one. And we’re going to use second hand
But there’s more all There’sYeah, there’s about 12 Zelf accounts. So,
So, it’s it’s likely that he said that.
Absolutely.
So, I’m just putting pins.
When I started using the term "pin in the map" years ago, I referred specifically to only those two pins that are found in the scriptures: Cumorah and Zarahemla. Of those, Cumorah is certain, while Zarahemla is interpretive. That's why I characterized my analysis as a hypothesis.
But none of the pins on this map are placed over Cumorah.
The podcast has completely abandoned the Cumorah issue at this point.
There’s obviously some things that he said about Central America. I think
Can we see what those Can we go back to those I want to see.
For sure.
[9:55]
All of these American continents, Central America. Let’s see. An unsigned editorial published in the Times and Seasons. Okay, so that’s that’s the one the Times and Seasons one. Um and then okay, cool. So, yeah, the Times and Seasons one and obviously like a heartland position on that. Jonathan Neville wrote a whole book on it uh saying that Joseph Smith didn’t actually approve of the Times and Seasons. Like he wasn’t an actually active editor on it that time. So, that’s how some people would understand it. Um but it is interesting that you’re seeing these multiple
But again, if we want to use that second-hand account allow for Zelf
Yeah.
I mean, Joseph Smith didn’t edit those either.
Yep.
And so,
I want to be as inclusive as possible in carving out one
True.
the other. Does that make sense?
Yeah.
We’ve got to be inclusive.
This is all fine--we all want to consider all the available historical sources--but none of this relates to Cumorah. I'm not going to spend much time on all of this because the distinction between Cumorah and Book of Mormon geography has been clear from the outset, as I discussed here:
https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/p/book-of-mormon-geography-essay.html
I assume everyone recognizes that knowing Cumorah/Ramah is in New York does not determine the geographical setting of other Book of Mormon sites. But the Cumorah/Ramah "pin in the map" does prevent wild speculation and conjecture. And, as Oliver Cowdery pointed out long ago, it removes the Book of Mormon from the realm of fiction (such as the Solomon Spalding theory).
Um so, I included those ones. So, those are just a few that Joseph Smith laid down, the plains of the Nephite there. He talked about South America as well being a part of the Book of Mormon lands. That’s why I put a pin down there. Brigham Young said similar things. The land of Joseph is the land of Zion and it takes North and South America to make the land of Joseph.
We all expect them to tell viewers what Brigham Young said about Cumorah. They did not do so here, so let's see if they do so later in the podcast.
Mhm.
And so, he also included one about Manti, Utah. That this The reason they built the Manti Temple there was because he had said that this is where Moroni had dedicated. So, we’ve got Manti, Utah in this as well.
come from a first-hand account or is that second-hand?
So, that comes from President Snow, not the president of the church, but stake stake president down there that he had pulled him aside and said, “Hey, the reason this was here is because Moroni dedicated this.”
Interesting.
[11:40]
John Taylor, another prophet, “Cities have been discovered by Mr. Stephens in Central America exactly where the Book of Mormon left them.” Again, in in 1842-43, this Dr. Stephen has put out this book talking about ruins, and I’m sure they’re excited. And so, again, more pins on the map of where this took place.
First, when John Taylor wrote that, he was not the prophet. Second, Taylor joined the Church in 1836 after meeting Parley P. Pratt in Canada and he adopted the Pratt brothers' views about the setting of the Book of Mormon. Third, this speculation about geography has nothing to do with Cumorah.
So, those are the prophets. And if you remember, we were, In my map, we kind of use the prophets first, and now we’re going to go look at apostles.
They don't explain the logic of quoting statements by apostles who later became President as having a higher priority over other apostles. Nor do they explain why Taylor and others who never lived in New York would have any personal knowledge of the matter.
Okay.
So, Oliver Cowdery seems to be the one that everyone kind of, This is what we’re going to use to figure this out with Cumorah. Oliver Cowdery’s unique because this is the earliest mention of anything geographic that we can find. And so, when Oliver Cowdery went to Ohio, he met with a newspaper journalist, and they wrote an article.
This is already misleading because Oliver did not go alone, as the article makes plain.
And this is from that article.
it was published.
Right after it was published. 18th November 1830. So, this is literally 7 months after the church is organized.
And it says this, “This new revelation” In this, we’re talking about the Book of Mormon. “They, Oliver Cowdery, say is especially designed for the benefit, or rather for this Christianas Christianize of the aborigines of America, who, as they affirm, are part of the tribe of Manasseh, and whose ancestor landed on the coast of Chile 600 years before the coming of Christ. And from them descended all the Indians of America.”
Notice how they inserted "Oliver Cowdery" into this newspaper by using brackets to qualify the collective "they." The original article does not quote Oliver specifically.
An objective podcast host would ask why Rosenvall inserted Oliver's name here.
We can infer that the reason is to raise doubts about Oliver's credibility, as the Baja advocates must do to justify their geographical theory, as we'll see below.
Regardless of Rosenvall's intent, this slide is deceptive. At most, we can say that Oliver was among the group that was interviewed. But also among that group was Parley P. Pratt, who with his brother Orson promoted the Chile landing.
On top of that, all we have is a critical newspaper article, which is hearsay. It does not even purport to be a direct quotation of what the missionaries said.
Oliver was one of the four missionaries to the Lamanites (D&C 28, 30, 32), which were the tribes in Ohio and Missouri which Joseph referred to as "our western tribes." It should not be surprising that Joseph explained the Book of Mormon was written by the ancestors of these tribes when the Lord had explained, "I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them." (Doctrine and Covenants 28:8)So, you can see there are a lot of elements of this all of North and South America.
And so, he also went on to say, you know, “Generally, the Americas are where the people are.”
It is unclear to what this refers.
The next slide shows excerpts from Oliver Cowdery.
He obviously in letter seven, and this is what it says, “I think I am justified in saying that this is the highest hill for some distance round. At about 1 mile west rises another ridge of less height running parallel with the former leaving a beautiful veil between. Here between these hills the entire power and nation’s strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.” That’s in letter seven and I think that’s the basic premises I can understand.
This may be the most deceptive and dishonest part of the entire podcast and the hosts just let it go.
We have to zoom in on the slide to see what he did here. It's odd that they bolded Oliver's statement "I think" which related to whether this is the highest hill, but presumably Rosenvall and Stick of Joseph want people to assume Oliver was merely speculating about Cumorah.
(click to enlarge)
Notice the ellipses.
Below is the actual quotation from Letter VII, taken from Joseph Smith's journal, with the part the podcast omitted in bold, and the most critical part they omitted shown in bold red.
I think I am justified in saying that this is the highest hill for some distance round, and I am certain that its appearance, as it rises so suddenly from a plain on the north, must attract the notice of the traveller as he passes by. At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/90
The deliberate censorship of Oliver's statement of fact is inexcusable. The only plausible justification is that Rosenvall and the Stick of Joseph do not want their viewers to make informed decisions about their Baja theory.
As we'll see in Part 3, the podcast only gets worse from here.
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