Cumorah 100 years ago vs today

100 years ago, the Hill Cumorah was important to Latter-day Saints. Everyone knew it was not only the place where Joseph obtained the plates, but also the site of the repository of records and the scene of the final battles of the Jaredites and Nephites.

Today, most Latter-day Saints have no idea what the prophets have taught about Cumorah. As an example of why, and to see how the situation can be remedied, see these annotations to the entry on Cumorah written by the Church History Department.

https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2025/06/improving-church-websites-cumorah.html

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100 years ago, the Church owned a slice of the Hill Cumorah (purchased in 1923) and was hoping to purchase the rest from the owner, Pliny T. Sexton. Sexton had offered to sell the hill for $100,000 (about $1.8 million in 2025 dollars), which the Church rejected. 

Sexton died on September 5, 1924, and his heirs disagreed about selling the property to the Church. By 1925 half of them thought a price of $50,000 was acceptable.

Negotiations continued until 1928, when a series of events enabled the Church to purchase Cumorah. In the April 1928 General Conference, President Ivins discussed the acquisition. We discussed his address in what is still the most-read post on this blog (so far).

https://www.lettervii.com/2017/01/the-hill-cumorah-by-president-anthony-w.html

Background:

In 1915 President Joseph F. Smith set apart Willard Bean  (the "Fighting Preacher") and his wife Rebecca as missionaries to Palmyra, NY. President Smith described the area as “the most prejudiced place in the world.” The Beans raised their family there. In 1923 they were able to enable the Church to purchase part of the Hill Cumorah. In 1928 arranged for the Church to purchase most of the rest of the hill.

An outstanding article titled "Acquiring Cumorah" by Cameron J. Packer explains how the Church was able to finally purchase Cumorah.

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-6-no-2-2005/acquiring-cumorah

Excerpts:

Early Church member W. W. Phelps wrote, “Cumorah . . . is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders.”

..... 

It is interesting to note that while events in obtaining the hill were developing rapidly in New York, Church leaders in Salt Lake City were right in step without actually having conversed with Willard Bean. 

On February 2, 1928, Willard wrote up the proposal for the purchase of the hill and surrounding properties and airmailed it to the First Presidency, asking them to let him know “at their earliest convenience.”[72] Two days later Willard received a telegram from the First Presidency that said, “See lawyer of Sexton estate and get definite offer for Hill Cumorah alone if possible; if not, with adjacent properties, put it in writing, put up forfeit, and let us hear from you at earliest convenience.”[73] This telegram was dated the same day that Willard had written and sent his letter to the First Presidency. 

Two days after receiving this telegram, Willard received another from the First Presidency that said, “Terms satisfactory. Close deal.”[74] It is therefore evident that the First Presidency was well aware that the time had come for the Church to purchase the Hill Cumorah, a point acknowledged by the First Presidency in a letter they sent to Willard Bean that said, “We were very glad to learn that you had secured an option on the Hill Cumorah Farm and other property before receiving word from us to do so. We had already noticed the singular coincidence of your writing to us the very same day and possibly the same hour that we were writing to you.”[75]

At the first General Conference after the acquisition, President Ivins gave the address we discussed in the post linked to above.

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In our day, few Latter-day Saints remember what the prophets have taught about Cumorah. Some of us remember these things from our seminary manuals, but those references have all vanished from current curriculum.

Nevertheless, the teachings of the prophets are available for anyone to read, including Letter VII and other references here:

https://www.mobom.org/byu-packet

How be it that ye have not written this thing?

People soon forget what is not written down. As Alma taught, "it has hitherto been wisdom in God that these things should be preserved; for behold, they have enlarged the memory of this people." (Alma 37:8)

In some cases, things are forgotten even when they were written down because the old writings are ignored or lost. That seemed to be the case with the Nephites. They had kept a record of Samuel the Lamanite's prophecies but the official record omitted his prophecy about saints arising from the dead.

The Lord made this point to the Nephites, when he asked them, "How be it that ye have not written this thing?" (3 Nephi 23:11)

Samuel had prophesied about 40 years earlier. Mormon inserted the official record of Samuel's prophecies and the associated events at the end of the Book of Helaman (our modern Chapters 13-16 in Helaman, Chapter V in the 1830 edition).

But when Nephi "brought forth the records," Christ noticed that some of Samuel's prophecies were missing from the official record, specifically that many would arise from the dead.

The disciples remembered that Samuel had prophesied about this, and that people did arise from the dead, but that was not found in the official records they gave to Christ.

In other words, Samuel's prophecy had once been known. Presumably his prophecy about saints rising from the dead had been recorded somewhere, but it was not included in the official records. The knowledge would have been lost to the Saints of that day once those who lived during that time had died with their memories. 

That's why Christ told the disciples to put it in the official records.

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We have a similar situation in our day regarding the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.

In our day, few Latter-day Saints know what the prophets have taught about the New York Cumorah/Ramah. 

Shortly before his death, Brigham Young expressed his concern that the truth about Cumorah would be forgotten.

I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting, enjoying the day, and by and by we separate and go away, forgetting most of what is said, but remembering some things. So is it with other circumstances in life. I relate this to you, and I want you to understand it. I take this liberty of referring to those things so that they will not be forgotten and lost.

(1877, BY Trying to ¶7 • JD 19:38)

Brigham Young had good reason to be concerned. 

While these accounts were written, and some have been preserved in the Joseph Smith Papers, they are mostly forgotten because they have been omitted from modern media and curriculum. Modern LDS scholars ignore what was taught (except when the M2Cers are repudiating it).

For example, Letters IV and VII were published in 1835 and then republished in all the Church newspapers during Joseph Smith's lifetime, so the New York Cumorah was common knowledge among Latter-day Saints as long as Joseph lived. 

The Messenger and Advocate

The Times and Seasons

The Gospel Reflector

The Millennial Star

The Prophet

Joseph even had them copied into his own journal, where we can all read them here:

Letter IV: "[Moroni] said this history was written and deposited not far from that place [Joseph's home near Palmyra, NY]"

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/69

Letter VII: "the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed."

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/90

In Utah, they were republished in the Improvement Era.

But they have never been republished in the Ensign or Liahona.

Consequently, few Latter-day Saints today know about it. What was common knowledge in Joseph's day is lost knowledge for Latter-day Saints today.

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A modern version of 3 Nephi 7-13. 

In our day, the Lord could say:

7 And it came to pass that he said unto Church Historian: Bring forth the record which ye have kept.

8 And when the Church Historian had brought forth the records, and laid them before him, he cast his eyes upon them and said:

9 Verily I say unto you, I commanded my servant Oliver Cowdery, the Assistant President of the Church, that he should testify unto this people, that my servant Moroni told Joseph Smith that the record of the Nephites was “written and deposited not far from Joseph’s home,” and that it is a fact that the final battles of the Nephites and Lamanites took place in the mile-wide valley west of the hill Cumorah in New York. And he said unto them: Was it not so?

10 And the Church historians answered him and said: Yea, Lord, Oliver did testify according to thy words, and they were all written.

11 And Jesus said unto them: How be it that ye have forgotten this thing, that made these things clear to my Saints?

12 And it came to pass that the Church Historian remembered that this thing had been written but had been long forgotten and ignored.

13 And it came to pass that Jesus commanded that it should be written again; therefore it was written according as he commanded.

14 Then Jesus said again, Verily I say unto you, I commanded my servant Brigham Young, President of the Church, that he should testify unto this people, that my servants Joseph and Oliver visited the repository of Nephite records in the hill Cumorah in New York, lest that, too, be forgotten among this people. And he said unto them: Was it not so?

15 And the Church historians answered him and said: Yea, Lord, President Young did testify according to thy words, and they were all written.

16 And Jesus said unto them: How be it that ye have forgotten this thing also, that made these things clear to my Saints?

17 And it came to pass that the Church Historian remembered that this thing had been written but had been long forgotten.

18 And it came to pass that Jesus commanded that it should be written again; therefore it was written according as he commanded.

19 Then Jesus said again, Verily I say unto you, I commanded my servants Orson Pratt, Heber C. Kimball, Marion G. Romney, Mark E. Peterson, and others, yeah, even every one of my servants who has testified about this topic, to reiterate and corroborate the testimony of my servants Joseph and Oliver. And he said unto them: Was it not so?

20 And the Church historians answered him and said: Yea, Lord, all of these servants did testify according to thy words, and they were all written.

21 And Jesus said unto them: How be it that ye have forgotten these things also, that made these things clear to my Saints?

22 And it came to pass that the Church Historian remembered that these things had been written but had been long forgotten.

23 And it came to pass that Jesus commanded that they should be written again; therefore it was written according as he commanded. 

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7 And it came to pass that he said unto Nephi: Bring forth the record which ye have kept.

8 And when Nephi had brought forth the records, and laid them before him, he cast his eyes upon them and said:

9 Verily I say unto you, I commanded my servant Samuel, the Lamanite, that he should testify unto this people, that at the day that the Father should glorify his name in me that there were many saints who should arise from the dead, and should appear unto many, and should minister unto them. And he said unto them: Was it not so?

10 And his disciples answered him and said: Yea, Lord, Samuel did prophesy according to thy words, and they were all fulfilled.

11 And Jesus said unto them: How be it that ye have not written this thing, that many saints did arise and appear unto many and did minister unto them?

12 And it came to pass that Nephi remembered that this thing had not been written.

13 And it came to pass that Jesus commanded that it should be written; therefore it was written according as he commanded.

(3 Nephi 23:7–13)

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"of worth unto my brethren"

The first verse of Moroni relates something important if we have eyes to read and minds to think.

4 Wherefore, I write a few more things, contrary to that which I had supposed; for I had supposed not to have written any more; but I write a few more things, that perhaps they may be of worth unto my brethren, the Lamanites, in some future day, according to the will of the Lord.

(Moroni 1:4)

Mormon had explained that he "made this record out of the plates of Nephi" when he was at Cumorah.

(Mormon 6:6)

Moroni reiterated this when he told Joseph Smith that "this history was written and deposited not far from that place," referring to Joseph's home near Palmyra, New York.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/69

Because Moroni was writing for his brethren, the Lamanites, it makes sense that he deposited the record in the area where they lived; i.e., western New York.

Cumorah "not far from" Joseph's home

That first night Moroni identified the location of the record by name: 

"the record is on a side hill on the Hill of Cumorah 3 miles from this place remove the Grass and moss and you will find a large flat stone pry that up and you will find the record under it laying on 4 pillars."

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/lucy-mack-smith-history-1844-1845/41

Joseph Smith explained he knew about Cumorah before he even got the plates. 

"And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed." 

(Doctrine and Covenants 128:20)

This is all common sense, well documented in Church history.

Next, we consider what Moroni meant by "my brethren, the Lamanites."

Mission to the Lamanites

We know from D&C 28, 30, and 32 that the Lord described the Indians in New York, Ohio and Missouri as Lamanites when he commanded Oliver Cowdery, Parley P. Pratt, Ziba Peterson, and Peter Whitmer to go on a mission "to the Lamanites." They taught members of the Seneca, Wyandot, and Delaware nations.

- Moroni wrote his part of the record so it would be of worth to his brethren, the Lamanites. 

- That history was "written and deposited" not far from Joseph's home. 

- Cumorah is about three miles from Joseph's home. 

- The Lamanites, whom Moroni identified as his brethren, were the Indians living in western New York and those tribes who had been pushed westward from their ancestral homes.

Joseph Smith teaching the Lamanites

While in Nauvoo, Illinois, Joseph Smith told the Sac and Fox Indians who lived in the area that the Book of Mormon was the record of their ancestors.

He also wrote the "Wentworth letter" which described the Book of Mormon. Joseph adapted an 1840 pamphlet by Orson Pratt and replaced Orson's speculation about Central America by writing that the remnant of Lehi's people "are the Indians that now inhabit this country." 

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/times-and-seasons-1-march-1842/5

For a comparison between Orson's pamphlet and the Wentworth letter, see 

https://www.mobom.org/wentworth-orson-pratt

So far, so good.

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But some LDS scholars reject all of that. They claim the early accounts about Cumorah in New York were all false speculation by the people involved. They claim that the "real Cumorah" is somewhere in southern Mexico, hence the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory ("M2C").

The M2Cers claim that instead of the history being "written and deposited not far from" Joseph's home, it was actually "written" thousands of miles away. 

Then, according to them, Moroni went on a long solitary march of thousands of miles to deposit the records in western New York, an area where his "brethren, the Lamanites" had never visited during the thousand-year history recorded in the Book of Mormon.

The M2C version of Moroni's route
(click to enlarge)

The M2Cers point to some non-scriptural and non-historical usage of the term "Lamanites" that conveyed a broad, generalized sense of the term to apply to native people throughout the western hemisphere and the Pacific basin. E.g., https://ldsmag.com/who-are-the-descendants-of-the-lamanites/

People can believe whatever they want, of course.

But everyone wants to make informed decisions. And most Latter-day Saints have never heard or seen the references from the Joseph Smith papers set out above.

And we can ask, which makes more sense?

What Joseph, Oliver, Lucy and others reported, versus what modern M2C scholars claim?

"head of the river Sidon"

People are still asking me about the head of the river Sidon. I discussed this almost 10 years ago on this blog, but most people have no idea about that.

I'm reposting it here, with some additions.

Several verses are implicated.

17 And it came to pass that I was desirous that Laman and Lemuel should come and partake of the fruit also; wherefore, I cast mine eyes towards the head of the river, that perhaps I might see them.

(1 Nephi 8:17)

 

the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west

(Alma 22:27)

nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness, at the head of the river Sidon, from the east to the west, round about on the wilderness side;

(Alma 22:29)

11 And thus he cut off all the strongholds of the Lamanites in the east wilderness, yea, and also on the west, fortifying the line between the Nephites and the Lamanites, between the land of Zarahemla and the land of Nephi, from the west sea, running by the head of the river Sidon

(Alma 50:11)

 25 Neither durst they march down against the city of Zarahemla; neither durst they cross the head of Sidon, over to the city of Nephihah.

(Alma 56:25)

The John Sorenson translation--he always writes "headwaters" instead of "head" when he refers to this--seems to have replaced Joseph Smith's translation in the minds of many M2Cers. They think these passages refer to the "source" of the Sidon river, which is one step removed from even the Sorenson translation.

For purposes of this discussion, I'll agree to set aside the Joseph Smith translation in favor of the Sorenson translation. Let's say, for sake of argument, that the "head of Sidon" is the same as "headwaters of Sidon." Now let's look at how the term was used in Joseph's Smith's day.

In the Zarahemla book, p. 273 (2nd Ed.) I pointed out that:

"Even “headwaters” does not always mean the source of a river. In 1842, Jesse W. Crosby kept a journal about his missionary journey from Nauvoo to Michigan. “I set off on a northeasterly course towards Michigan, crossing the headwaters of the Illinois at Ottawa, thence up the Knakakee River.” The Illinois River extends another 30 miles east of Ottawa, so what was Crosby referring to? The Fox River joins the Illinois River at Ottawa. To Crosby, “headwaters” meant a confluence."

I used to live along the Fox River in Illinois. It's not a major river, but it is notable and there are several towns along the river (as in most of the Midwest, people settled along the rivers, just as they did in Book of Mormon times). If I canoed down the Fox River behind our house I would end up entering the Illinois River.

Here's a map showing the "headwaters" vs. the "source" of the Illinois River.

Next, let's see how Oliver Cowdery used the term.

In his Letter VIII, Oliver Cowdery wrote "This gentleman, whose name is Stowel, resided in the town of Bainbridge, on or near the head waters of the Susquehannah river. Some forty miles south, or down the river, in the town of Harmony, Susquehannah county, Pa...." I quoted letter VIII previously here:

https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2015/08/oliver-cowdery-and-stone-box.html

  

Bainbridge, NY, is at least 40 miles from Cooperstown, the location of the source of the Susquehannah River. (South Bainbridge, today known as Afton, was where Stowell lived, and it is another 5 miles downriver.

Did Oliver not know the source of the river was nowhere near Bainbridge? Of course he did. Then why did he say Stowel resided "on or near" the head waters in Bainbridge?

You can see from the map that tributaries flow into the river at or near Afton. Oliver used the term "head waters" the same way Jesse Crosby did.

Some say "headwaters" may refer to a crossing or bridge. That definition also makes sense in the Book of Mormon. One thing for sure is when Oliver wrote "head waters" he did not mean the source of the river.

These are two actual uses of the term head waters, contemporaneous with Joseph Smith, that don't mean the source. The fact that Oliver Cowdery of all people used the term to mean a confluence should be enough to settle the matter, but I suppose this debate will never be settled until Moroni sets us straight.

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Then there is Jonathan Edwards.

Edwards wrote a couple of letters referring to the "head of the river" that anyone can read at the Edwards Center at Yale University. 

As to the affair of preaching the gospel to the Indians, Mr. [Elihu] Spencer went the last fall, far into the western wilderness; to the Oneidas, one of the tribes of Indians called the Six Nations, living on Susquehanna River, towards the head of the river , to a place called by the Indians, Onohquauga, about 180 miles southwest from Albany on Hudson's River, where he continued almost through the winter; and went through many difficulties and hardships, with little or no success, through the failing of his interpreter.

There had been here the last summer a man whose name was Jonah [Tonaughquunnaugus] from Onohquaga, a town of the Oneidas situated on Susquehanna River near the head of the river about 200 miles southwest from Albany. He was one of the principal inhabitants of the town, who, having heard of the things which were doing here for the instruction of the Indians, came to visit this place and make report to his people. 

Naturally, we wonder where this Indian town was located.

Wikipedia explains: Onaquaga (also spelled many other ways) was a large Iroquois village, located on both sides of the Susquehanna River near present-day Windsor, New York. 

Windsor, NY, is about 13 miles upriver from Harmony, Pa, where Joseph translated the abridged plates (which included the passages of Alma quoted above). On the map below, you can see it would take over 4 hours to walk from Windsor, NY (formerly Onaquaga) to Harmony, PA.

(click to enlarge)

The source of the Susquehanna River is Otsego Lake, at Cooperstown, NY, about 67 miles upstream from Windsor, NY. 

Obviously, Edwards was not referring to the source of the Susquehanna River when he referred to the "head of the river." Instead, he referred to the "head of the river" at Onaquaga (now Windsor) because at that location, there is a tributary to the Susquehanna. 

Windsor is about 100 miles from Albany as the crow flies. Edwards said it was "about 180 miles southwest from Albany on Hudson's River" because the Hudson River is on the other side of the watershed from the Susquehanna River. To get to Onaquaga, you can sail down the Hudson part of the way, then paddle upstream to the watershed divide and portage your boat over to one of the rivers on the other side that feeds into the Susquehanna. 

The point is that to Edwards, the "head of the river" was only a few miles upstream from where Joseph translated the Book of Mormon, using that very term. And neither Joseph nor Edwards used it as a synonym for "source."

But people can disagree and still claim Joseph should have dictated the word "source" because (in their minds) that is what Joseph meant. 

Other Latter-day Saints, such as me, prefer Joseph's translation to the Sorenson or other M2C translations.

Another account of the repository in Cumorah in New York

Jesse N. Smith kept a journal from 1834-1906. He was at an evening meeting in Cedar City in February, 1874, when Brigham Young came to visit.

Jesse wrote:

"I heard him at an evening meeting in Cedar City describe an apartment in the Hill Cumorah that some of the brethren had been permitted to enter. He said there was great wealth in the room in sacred implements, vestments, arms, precious metals and precious stones, more than a six-mule team could draw."

You can see this in his published journal here:

https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/391cd59a-72e8-4b45-bf35-9a2e2aadfd22/0/235?lang=eng

  

Simple comparison: scholars vs prophets

In the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding, and in the spirit of no more contention, the table below compares two alternative approaches to the Cumorah question.

The purpose is to simplify and clarify the differences while: 

(i) assuming all parties are acting in good faith and 

(ii) seeking understanding of both sides with no contention about "who is correct." 

“All parties should strive to avoid contention on these matters.” 

Cumorah: prophets vs scholars
Prophets	M2C Scholars
New York Cumorah	M2C (Mesoamerican/two-Cumorah’s theory that puts Cumorah in Mexico)
Basic premise
Basic premise: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, their contemporaries and their successors in Church leadership told the truth about Cumorah/Ramah in New York.	Basic premise: Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, their contemporaries and their successors in Church leadership did not tell the truth about Cumorah but instead were merely speculating because a few RLDS and LDS scholars have figured out that the “real” Cumorah must be in Mexico to make their maps of the Book of Mormon fit.
Specific examples
Moroni called the hill Cumorah during his first visit to Joseph Smith	Joseph Smith, Lucy Mack Smith, and Oliver Cowdery were all wrong
Joseph referred to the hill as Cumorah even before he translated the plates	Lucy Mack Smith was wrong
The messenger took the abridged plates from Harmony to Cumorah	David Whitmer was wrong
Joseph and Oliver visited the repository in Cumorah multiple times	Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, Heber C. Kimball were all wrong
Joseph’s contemporaries and successors in Church leadership, including members of the First Presidency speaking in General Conference, reaffirmed that Cumorah is in New York	They were all wrong.
Who discusses which approach (with no more contention)
Ordinary Latter-day Saints who accept the teachings of the prophets have taught and who confirm their bias by assessing the extrinsic evidence that supports and corroborates the teachings of the prophets and Cumorah/Ramah in New York. Often referred to as “Heartlanders.”	Scholars in legacy organizations such as FAIRLDS, Interpreter, FARMS, BMAF, Book of Mormon Central, etc., all of whom reject the teachings of the prophets and confirm their bias by interpreting the Book of Mormon to fit in a Mesoamerican setting. Often referred to as “M2Cers.”

The references are available here:

https://www.mobom.org/church-history-issues

Horses in ancient America

Someone posted this on FB.

"The popular narrative that horses were brought to the Americas by Europeans is now being questioned. New evidence suggests that horses were in the Americas independent of European contact. Some native nations have contended that horses have been around since time immemorial, but unfortunately oral traditions and traditional knowledge frequently aren’t regarded as legitimate until Western science validates these claims.

It now looks like archeology is catching up with what some Native nations have always known,

providing yet another example of how Indigenous knowledge and Native ways of knowing must be given equal consideration with Knowledge from a Western scientific paradigm.

While this new evidence doesn’t confirm that horses have been in the Americas since time immemorial, it does demonstrate that the adoption of the horse is independent of European colonization.

“Native accounts contradicted the timeline centered on the Pueblo Revolt, suggesting some tribes had acquired horses much earlier, but “oral tradition was discounted,” says Comanche historian Jimmy Arterberry, a co-author of the Science study. “The end result has been to discredit the antiquity of the relationship between Native people and horses,” adds University of Colorado, Boulder, archaeologist William Taylor, also a co-author.”"

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1519103878311682/

10 years ago at Cumorah...

I made this video about 10 years ago (October 2015). 

https://youtu.be/RD39bOvxPL4

Most Latter-day Saints today have no idea what Oliver Cowdery taught about the Hill Cumorah. Because the hill has been reforested, Latter-day Saints will never have the view of the valley west of Cumorah that Oliver described in Letter VII, which is the same view Mormon described in Mormon 6.

But videos and photos preserve the historic viewpoint so people can still understand what Oliver described.

For more info, see https://www.mobom.org/church-history-issues

Brigham Young's prophecy about Cumorah

Shortly before he died, Brigham Young discussed Cumorah in a special conference in 1877. He said, 

"I relate this to you, and I want you to understand it. I take this liberty of referring to those things so that they will not be forgotten and lost."

[See the full excerpt from his discourse below.]

Despite his efforts, Brigham's fear was realized. His prophecy that these things would be forgotten and lost has come to pass.

In our day, Latter-day Saints never learn what Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, his mother Lucy Mack Smith, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Heber C. Kimball, Wilford Woodruff and other contemporaries of Joseph Smith said about Cumorah. 

No one who relies on the Saints book, volume 1, to learn about Church history knows anything about Cumorah. Regarding Cumorah, that book creates a false narrative present because in Joseph's day, everyone knew Cumorah was not merely the site of Moroni's stone box that contained the abridged plates, but also the site of the repository of Nephite records and the same hill called Ramah by the Jaredites.

In Joseph Smith's day, every Latter-day Saint knew about Cumorah/Ramah. 

-Oliver's account (Letter VII) was published in the 1835 Messenger and Advocate. 

-Joseph had it copied into his journal as part of his life history, where everyone can read it today in the Joseph Smith Papers.

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/90

-Joseph encouraged people to republish Oliver's account. In 1841, Benjamin Winchester republished it in the Gospel Reflector. 

-Parley P. Pratt republished it in the Millennial Star. 

-Joseph's brother Don Carlos republished it in the Times and Seasons. 

-Joseph's brother William republished it in The Prophet (a New York newspaper) in 1844.

-Joseph's nephew, Joseph F. Smith, republished it in the Improvement Era in Utah.

Oliver's explanation about Cumorah/Ramah was included in lesson manuals, books, articles, etc. It was discussed in General Conference as recently as 1975.

Today, apart from historical references such as the Joseph Smith papers, Cumorah/Ramah has been erased from the historical content such as Saints and media produced by Scripture Central.

But Latter-day Saints who are "engaged learners," who are not "lazy learners" who rely on scholars to tell them what to think, but are "learners who act" continue to learn what the prophets have taught about Cumorah.

For more info, see https://www.mobom.org/church-history-issues

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Discourse by President Brigham Young, delivered at a Special Conference Held at Farmington, for the Purpose of Organizing a Stake of Zion for the County of Davis, on Sunday Afternoon, June 17, 1877.

When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls. The first time they went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: “This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ.” 

I tell you this as coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it just as well as we understand coming to this meeting, enjoying the day, and by and by we separate and go away, forgetting most of what is said, but remembering some things. So is it with other circumstances in life. 

I relate this to you, and I want you to understand it. I take this liberty of referring to those things so that they will not be forgotten and lost. Carlos Smith was a young man of as much veracity as any young man we had, and he was a witness to these things. Samuel Smith saw some things, Hyrum saw a good many things, but Joseph was the leader.

(1870s1877, BY Trying to ¶7 • JD 19:38) 

2 sets of plates: AI narrative

The narrative as related by Google AI Studio:

Joseph Smith, guided by the angel Moroni, ventured to the Hill Cumorah. It was a crisp autumn evening, the air filled with the scent of decaying leaves and the promise of a sacred task. Deep within the earth, nestled in a stone box, lay the golden plates. These plates, a record of ancient inhabitants of the Americas, were entrusted to Joseph. With reverence and a sense of divine calling, he carefully removed the heavy, metallic leaves, knowing they held a powerful story waiting to be unlocked.

Back in Harmony, Pennsylvania, with his scribe Oliver Cowdery faithfully recording, Joseph began the arduous process of translation. Peering into the Urim and Thummim, he saw characters form and words illuminate his mind. Oliver, amazed and humbled, diligently transcribed the words that flowed from Joseph's lips. The room was filled with a quiet intensity, a palpable connection to a history long forgotten. The Book of Mormon began to take shape, a testament to faith, revelation, and the enduring power of God's word.

Once the translation of the abridged plates was complete, Joseph followed further instructions. An old, wise-looking man, with a long, flowing white beard and kind eyes, arrived, guided by the same heavenly messenger. With solemnity and trust, Joseph delivered the abridged plates into his care. The old man, his face etched with understanding and purpose, accepted the weighty responsibility, knowing the sacred purpose they served.

The old man, carrying the plates in his knapsack, journeyed back to the Hill Cumorah. He walked with a steady resolve, his gaze fixed on the horizon, as if guided by an unseen force. The sun dipped below the horizon, casting long shadows across the landscape as he approached the familiar hill. Here, he carefully returned the larger set of plates to their resting place, entrusting them to the earth from whence they came.

A short time later, in Fayette, New York, the same old man appeared before Joseph once more. This time, he carried a smaller set of plates, bound together but significantly smaller and lighter than the abridged plates. These plates contained the history of the people of Nephi in Nephi's own words. These plates were now entrusted to Joseph, to translate and understand the promises made to his ancestors. 

2 sets of plates: another reason

One common criticism of the Restoration is the idea that the entire text of the Book of Mormon as we have it today, plus the Book of Lehi (the lost 116 pages), plus the sealed portion, all fit on a set of gold plates that were about 6"x9"x6" thick.

This objection came up recently on the Alex O'Connor podcast with Jacob Hansen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_E4K_6O1LY

I've seen myriad speculations from all sides on this topic, including the idea that the inscriptions were tiny, that each character could represent several words, a sentence, or a concept, etc.

For example, in his Part Seven, Royal Skousen rejects the Truman Coe account of the translation by writing, "A single character corresponding to an entire thought ('the import written in plain English' and 'the meaning of the next character') also shows up in David Whitmer's later accounts, but this too seems to be impossible."

Regardless of the speculation, whether from apologists or critics, the problem would be alleviated if there were more plates involved.

Which is exactly what we think happened, as explained by the "two sets of plates" scenario.

https://www.lettervii.com/p/the-two-sets-of-plates-schematic.html

Under this scenario, Joseph obtained abridged plates from Moroni's stone box, but not the original plates of Nephi (which we usually call the small plates). He returned the abridged plates to the messenger (one of the Three Nephites) before leaving Harmony. This messenger returned those plates to the repository in Cumorah, where he picked up the plates of Nephi and took them to Fayette, which is why Joseph translated the plates of Nephi in Fayette.

IOW, we have two entirely separate sets of plates. 

Those who claim the entire Book of Mormon, including the Book of Lehi, the sealed portion, and the plates of Nephi, were all included in the 6x9x6 set of plates can immediately see how confining their theory is.

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you say we have some descriptions about the physical characteristics of the plates we know sort of roughly how big

1:27:34

they were we know like the size of the the the the plates and of

1:27:40

course we also know how much information was put on the Golden Plates because we

1:27:47

have our English translation of course it wasn't written in English on the plates but we know like the amount of

1:27:52

information given what we know about the size of the plates and given that there

1:27:58

are 2

1:28:14

269,000 plates which seems like a reasonable estimate I mean would you agree that they were probably between 50 and 100 Golden Plates I actually

1:28:20

wouldn't um you're bringing up uh uh the how could all of this this information it fit onto those plates yes because

1:28:27

you're going to say that they're much thinner so so they have they they actually have been people who have

1:28:33

studied this pretty in depth um and and there are absolutely ways that it could

1:28:39

have fit on it within the thickness of known Alloys that would be used for this

1:28:44

sort of thing um so to be clear like the if you look at another example of a

1:28:50

metal plates and this is something that Trent horn brings up in his debate to you he mentions the plates of Darius

1:28:55

which are written in a few different languages they're written in uh old Persian they're written in

1:29:00

Acadian um they're written in some other language that I can't pronounce elmite

1:29:05

and uh each plate contains around 200 English words like in Translation we get about 200 English words per plate right

1:29:13

mhm there are 270,000 words in the Book of Mormon so if it like obviously it's a different

1:29:20

language that we're talking about here but if that is the kind of information uh density that we tend to

1:29:28

find in these sort of symbolic languages it is difficult to imagine how somebody

1:29:33

would take 270,000 words and fit them onto Golden Plates that like you know

1:29:41

were would sort of off the off the size described it seems like you have to have like entire

1:29:47

paragraphs represented by like singular symbols yeah I I would say that I I

1:29:54

would dispute the number of I I would have to point you to people that have actually made videos on this I actually

1:30:00

have one on my channel I don't have it off the top of my head some of the research on this but when you actually

1:30:05

take the thickness of the plates and change it to the number of plates that would have been available they were described as being as thin as like

1:30:12

pliable paper so they were very thin in in according to the scriptions from the

1:30:17

witnesses and when you take into account um how small the text could be made like

1:30:24

it doesn't rule this out and then there's another aspect to this that people have talked about as a as I think a possibility if this is a revealed

1:30:31

translation there's nothing in there that can't expand certain ideas that are in the original text Blake Osler who's a

1:30:38

great scholar latterday St scholar has a has a paper about the expansion theory around the Book of Mormon that some of

1:30:45

this may have been expanded ideas that exist so

1:30:51

again yes I put this in the okay this is sort of an interesting puzzle but I don't think that it's something that

1:30:56

sort of comes away showing that it's impossible I think people over their claim it would have to be an incredible

1:31:03

document right and I don't know much about this I mean I haven't read the book of Mor um and I I'm I I knew

1:31:10

nothing about Mormonism until we met fairly recently in Los Angeles so yeah we're sort of learning on the spot here

1:31:16

but as far as I understand it like this is just the the Golden Plates are written accounts of the people who had

1:31:22

fled uh who had fled Jerusalem and they end up burying these plates somewhere

1:31:30

and so like the writing of the plates isn't itself like a miraculous occurrence this is just a people writing

1:31:36

down in their language the events of their lives and so if we did end up

1:31:42

happening to find happening that if if it did happen that this occurred on

1:31:47

these incredibly thin Golden Plates which we don't really find anywhere else we find plates but we don't find them

1:31:53

that thin we don't find that much information put onto that size of plates it would have to be this like remarkable

1:31:59

and unique set of texts at the very least right to a certain to a certain degree there again some of the stuff

1:32:06

that you're bringing up I know it's been disputed because I've I've seen apologetics on this subject I don't have

1:32:12

them here but like there are there are texts that are extremely small in the ancient world that they would that they

1:32:19

would do also the thickness of the plates you can make certain things like tumbaga that they've talked about that

1:32:25

can be made extremely thin it's just one of those things again that yeah sure I I

1:32:30

can see why this would be a a challenge but it it's one that when I stack up all the other things sure I end up in this

1:32:39

situation where it's like look yeah I have reasons to doubt but if I'm trying to account for all of it I also have to

1:32:45

try and account for all these reasons that I believe and a lot of those reasons there there is evidentiary stuff

1:32:52

there as I've kind of talked about which again people can debate and dispute

1:32:58

but um I think that there's like ultimately

1:33:04

like with like with any Christian for example talking about various things there are reasons to believe

1:33:11

there are reasons to doubt and I think that we have a strong case as strong as any Christian Case and then there is

1:33:18

sort of the effect that this has on sort of a spiritual level right yeah um so I'm I'm I'm not going to

1:33:24

yeah I I don't want to I don't want to put you on the spot and if you send me after this a link to the the video that

1:33:29

you have or other videos discussing this I'll put it in the description because I think this will this will be important to people because it's it's one of the

1:33:36

it's an interesting sort of physical uh dispute right like we we can

1:33:42

there's things that we can learn we can discover how ancient Plains were inscribed we can discover how thin you

1:33:47

can realistically cut gold and it still be legible you you we can discover

1:33:53

ancient language is cond and just to be clear like the plates had an appearance

1:33:58

of gold there's the idea that they are actually like 24 carat solid go we that

1:34:03

is not what we believe about that just interesting yeah that's that's that's instructive too